Wladimir or Holyfield?

Well ...

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And all you've shown is you have an inflated view of some boxers and underrate others when it fits your narrative. And i find it funny when I show your views are flawed you either deflect or refuse to consider why you're wrong and instead critique my knowledge. But whatever you clearly have your bias against eastern European boxers and don't see the need to discuss your own rankings so no point discussing this with you anymore.

 

I can agree with almost all of the above post, bar this part of the last line: "At HW, Wlad was clearly the better".

I suspect the matter runs along similar lines to that of a previous discussion we had, re Wlad and Lewis, in which, if I recall correctly, you saw them much closer together, in terms of their respective levels of ability, than I did. If so, then I think I understand how you come to conclude your above statement.

I'm not saying it's a wild idea, but the sticking point for me is that it relies on drawing from Wlad's performances against what is broadly a lower-tier of opposition and a somewhat, I would say, narrower expression of skill-set, in order to make that determination - and, perhaps why I can't quite get there myself.

 

Wlad beats Holyfield.

 

Established new lineage
Wlad: 1
Holyfield: 0

 

That is a true point.

 

Genuine question: In terms of rating resumé, what is the difference between having established a new lineage and having taken the lineal championship from the previous lineal champion?

EDIT: Or was the '1-0' to redress a perceived imbalance in the figures, by pointing out that Wlad had himself at least forged a lineal championship?

 

Establishing a new lineage is generally better.

New lineage: Wlad, Holmes, Frazier, Patterson, Schmeling.

Same Lineage: Briggs, Old Foreman, Leon Spinks, Ancient Ali, Primo Carnera, etc.

See the difference?

 

What ? Who actually rates the creation of a lineage on a fighter's resume ? This is the first time I've seen that. All that means is that the guy prior to the new lineal champ left the sport at the top, it doesn't say anything about the new lineal champ's ability. It's actually weird that you have such a strong opinion towards this, and are actively choosing to ignore Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Ali, Foreman, Holyfield and Lewis, who all continued the lineage, and would rather cherry pick some of the worst champs the division has ever seen. The fact that you are opting to deliberately do this for such a nothing subject is actually baffling.

 

There’s a first for everything, big guy. In order to establish a new lineage, you have to beat the best guy available.

In order to become lineal, you can beat an out of shape Buster Douglas who quits instead of trying to beat the count.

 

What if the best guy available was Jack Root ? That's who Hart defeated to establish a new lineage after Jeffries' retirement. Two can play this game.

 

Frazier got lineage when he beat Ali. And come on dude….. you intentionally omitted names from the list of guys who beat “ the man. “ Liston, Ali, Dempsey, Louis and a myriad of other greats won the lineal title without forging new lineage. Incidentally I rate Wlad higher than Holy but not because of that

 

Not really. I don’t think that was even in the 20th century. Everyone since Schmeling (the guy after Hart) has been solid.

 

According to CBZ, Frazier became lineal because Ali was retired during his hiatus.

It’s no surprise that the weak lineal claimants are never the guys who established lineage unless we’re going back 100+ years and looking at Marvin Hart.

 

Everyone who started a new lineage from scratch ? Yes. The people they beat to start that lineage ? No. The lineage only broke 7 times, when Jeffries, Tunney, Marciano, Ali, Lewis and Fury retired, with Ali retiring twice. And it only stayed broken for good when Tunney, Marciano and Lewis retired. Schmeling got it due to a foul, Patterson won it when he beat a Light Heavyweight in Archie Moore, and Wlad got it when he beat Chagaev, whose best win was a close one over John Ruiz, who had recently gotten schooled by 2 blown up Middleweights in their mid 30's. Some lineal champs were horrible, but they never were this constistently mediocre.