Wladimir vs Ali

Lets cut right to the chase.

Cooper nearly/almost/coulda etc Ali. Bottom line - he DIDN'T!

Much much more important however is that Cooper dropped Ali in his 19th fight as a 21 year old.

Ali's pre exile peak was some 4 years later.

Any serious talk of Ali and Cooper in 63 reeks of obvious bias.

Accusations of a composite Ali when placing importance on the 63 version is ridiculous.

 

Ali had the same chin, whether young or old. You can't train to improve your chin, either you have it or do not

 

Sounds like an excuse., there is one for every loss. It seems rather to me that Wlad never faced anybody as good as Fury before.

 

Well , Manny used always give Wlad a tongue lashing between rounds to get him to up the ante but Wlad did only what Wlad wanted to do.
He yelled at him round after round to dispatch Chambers yet Wlad would still go out and peck n hold every round.

During the Williamson fight , Manny had to calm him down due to the trouble he was having with his movement by saying - don't worry Wlad , he's no Ali.

Manny was a great trainer , but he couldn't give Wlad the tools or mind-set required to beat Ali.

 

It's also true, but it's not Wlad's fault that the division as a whole was weak, he faced either "small" boxers (Ibragimov, Chagaev, Hay, Povetkin) or with "big" but without skills like Wach.
And what about Fury, very sorry that he ducked the rematch with Wlad, because according to the fight with AJ, Wlad could take a risk

 

Fury fell apart at the seams , had his license was taken away for 2 years and hasn't been back in the ring since his win in Germany. Ducking the rematch doesn't factor into the equation at all.

 

Hard to say, Ali had the mental toughness & self belief that was rare, Marciano matched him there in a very subtle way, different styles but strong self confidence. Perhaps Dempsey Johnson and Louis also carried that air. Johnson was vocal like Ali but Marciano and Dempsey had a quiet self belief. Tyson was a combination, mean and vocal. Lewis reserved but confident, Vitali gained confidence from the Lewis fight much like Weaver did vs Holmes.

Vlad had self doubt because of KO losses but he rebounded as he matured nicely and had quite a run. Ali had many challenges but no one quite with the size,power and ability of Vlad. Would mental toughness be the key?

Hard to compare era's mainly with the heavyweights because other than fit Super heavyweights like Vlad,Lewis,Vitali,Joshua,Wilder the majority of the rest were just out of shape fat guys so these Big heavyweights with Olymipic background, modern training,etc. also stand out as exceptional and a strong challenge to Ali but not impossible. They could either win suprisingly comfortably or fall apart somewhere but the fact remains there was no one around in the Ali era with the skill, power,experience,size,weight,height, talant of a prime Vlad

 

Yes, but in all of those fights (if i am not mistaken), Wlad didn't lose during the fight, and this could be the reason that Wald didn't change his strategy and continued "jab-jab-clinch".

 

And yet we have the film right there, to see. Dropped like a sack of spuds.

People give Sanders endless grief for getting caught in his 24th fight

Yet The Blade 2 seems to think a guy's chin is the same throughout his career. If that's the case then Cooper is very relevant

 

Ooorrrrr ... I have a theory that people slow down and aren't physically the same as they were earlier in their life

 

I think we have to favor Wlad, right? He controlled the division for longer than Ali, a division that had become populated by larger, more powerful and advanced fighters. I would favor Wlad 60-40, because... well, the universe is expanding.

 

In Ali's defense, I can see where his chin improved as he got older. The shots he took from Foreman and Shavers in his 30's would've crippled a 21 year old Ali. I can't see Henry Cooper nearly sparking the Ali who faced down Foreman and Shavers. It could've been because Ali still had more physical maturing to do when he fought Cooper. He certainly was noticeably bigger in his 1964-67 run than he was before that as a 195-200 pound fighter. Also, many men get noticeably bigger and stronger in their mid 20s to mid 30s than they were in their teens and early 20's, especially if they're athletic and/or involved in strength training.

 

Clay was up before the midway point of the count, walked to his own corner and came out boxing superbly right at the start of the next round. He also suffered a flash KD vs Sonny Banks early career and was up straight away and right back into it. Clay came off the floor to win both bouts.

Credit to Cooper tho. Clay may have been green and maturing but Cooper came to fight and had a hammer of a left hook. He gave Cassius a good hard fight - exactly what was needed at this career stage.

I'll let you handle that one. Clay did win his fight regardless of getting caught.

That's Blade 2. Irregardless Clay was a much better fighter and more physically mature when he went into exile vs when he first fought Cooper.

 

This.

 

Ali weighed 212 3/4, 212 1/4 and 211 1/2 in his 3 fights right before exile. He was almost 4 years removed from the first Cooper knock down and 25 years old. He weighed 212 against Frazier in their second bout right before he fought Foreman.

There is no reason to think the 25yo Ali could not take a great punch. None at all. He would have been more durable than he was at 21 and a noticeably better fighter too.