Worst chin among HW world champions?

Lennox might have the worst lineal champ chin. His chin isn't horrible its just there haven't been a lot of HW champs with weak chins. Good chin seems to be the most common attribute HW world champs share.

Johansson or Buster Douglas?

Wasn't the WBO not considered a real belt during the time Morrison and Hide were winning? I consider it a major belt a few years before being it was upgraded because those years got it upgraded but I don't consider it such in the 90s. Maskaev and Seldon might be the worst 2 HW champs ever.

 

Mind immediately went to Hide. Felt like he took a tumble every time Bowe touched him

 

Correct. The sport was often referred to as having "3 major belts," not 4, during that era.

 

I'd say Patterson has the worst chin out of the poll options. At least Hide can take solace in the fact that he was getting dropped/KO'd by fighters in the 240 lb range, whereas Patterson was routinely down vs. 180-190 lb fighters. The same punches that Hide was able to climb off the canvass from vs. Bowe would've probably sent Patterson's head flying into the 3rd row.

 

Roy Jones Jr.
Lol

 

Without even utilizing the list i'd take the Lewis chin over Wlad, Moorer, Ingo, Michael Spinks, Leon Spinks and Carnera among others.

 

Patterson had tremendous conditioning, but was susceptible to flash KDs because he was a slow starter who squared up. However, tremendous conditioning meant that the only times he was truly separated from his senses were by Ingo and Liston. (But even with Sonny, he got up just after the count was completed both times.)

Yvonne Durelle's first knockdown of Archie Moore was identified by the Mongoose as the hardest shot he was ever hit with (and it was indeed a monstrous right), but in an early eight rounder, Floyd wasn't decked by the Fighting Fisherman. He did not go down in the middle bout with Ingo (wobbled just a little), Moore (although Arch said that may have been his worst performance ever, certainly in a title match), Machen, Cooper or Ellis (all respectable punchers).

Morrison was criticized for having a bad chin, an accusation Tommy himself refuted on camera in comments which might still be available on YouTube. He did get up to win against Ruddock, was TKOed in six by Lennox (no disgrace there), abruptly gassed against the extremely punch resistant Mercer, leaving Bentt as his one really bad stoppage defeat. He did stand up to plenty of hard shots from Foreman in his finest career performance.

Hide, Maskaev and Seldon? Insufficent information.

As for HW Title claimants I did see in action, do you want an HOF HW with a questionable chin, great matchmaking to conceal it, and a resulting reputation with supporting physique which made him seem far better and more durable than he really was? You can have Ken Norton.

Norton never proved he could beat a top shelf puncher. He was buckled in his rematch with Garcia when Jose was hopelessly out of shape and retired afterward.

A hopelessly shot and undertrained Jerry Quarry (on 18 days notice) buckled him (on five months continual training) with a short right just as referee Johnny LoBianco originally stepped in to stop it, causing LoBianco to quickly jump back before ending it seconds later. (What happens if JQ also had five months of continual training?)

Ken was wobbled silly by an Ali right with 50 seconds left in round six of their middle bout in a situation where peak Ali of 1965-1967 would've taken him out (and caused Ken to rate Muhammad's power way over that of a left arm injured Holmes).

Norton was dropped by nine different opponents a total of 15 times. (Harold Dutra, Jimmy Gilmore, Aaron Eastling, Garcia I 3X, Vic Brown, George Foreman 3X [although he actually hit the floor only once in Caracas, as the ropes twice prevented him from going down], Shavers 2X, LeDoux 2X [although the second left him hanging on the ropes as time expired] and Cooney. It was Gerry's much less vaunted right which started Ken's downfall.)

Now it can also be said that most knockdowns sustained by Norton, except LeDoux and Garcia I, can be dismissed due to his also being the slowest starting HW Title claimant ever, but it seems certain Mac Foster and Bob Foster would've knocked him out in 1970 (Bob was the same height and weight as Garcia was in 1970), and of course Ken was steered clear of Ron Lyle during the 1970's.

Roy Jones, Jr. was obviously pathetic. He didn't have the chin Toney proved to possess when he moved up in weight. Got decked at 175 by Lou Del Valle in a situation where it doesn't look like a flash KD, but something where Roy has to clinch and weather the follow up storm.


Okay, take your pick, RJJ or Norton. The best puncher beaten by each? Ruiz decked Holyfield and a way past it Tucker before losing to Roy.

Ken? Had a good ten round scrap with O'Halloran, who Foreman rated as a puncher, and he did weather a storm from JQ, who could still at least punch, but there's not that really anything to Norton's resume in the way of prime punchers. Jerry beat at least three punchers Ken could not have, Shavers (who did blow out Ken), Lyle (no way Norton survives Ron) and Mac Foster. Nor am I sold on Ken necessarily withstanding the much faster, harder punching and well conditioned Patterson. At best, if Norton had decisioned Ali in Yankee Stadium or over Holmes, he'd have been a transitional champion. Ali beat all styles. Again, Ken couldn't handle sluggers (Ingo would've killed him BTW), or good buddy Frazier, Coetzee, Knoetze, his protégé Hercules, maybe not Tate (who would've been ready for him), or Mercado, the latter six all out there when Ken was closest to becoming Champion. (No way Norton contemplates Bernardo after Holmes if he'd beaten Larry, and he certainly wasn't going to for his 1980-1981 comeback, although he might've contemplated Mercado after Leon got through with him, instead of the lesser known, but also less tested Cooney. By late 1980, Bernardo was a highly recognized menace.)


Maybe Ingo belongs. Could be argued as gassing in his finale with London, however Brian (well conditioned) dropped him with a single right with four seconds left in round 12. Ingo got dropped four times and counted out twice against an admittedly hard punching Patterson. I don't think he was in proper condition for those five KDs however after two wins in 13 rounds.


Most underrated chins among undisputed and consensus HW Champions? Fitz, who lost the HW Title on the strength of a liver shot from Jeffries, the only one to beat him twice. As light as he was, he routinely blew out 200 pounders. Took the new LHW Title over 20 rounds against George Gardiner at age 41, and Gardiner could hit. Once prime, Fitz was a nightmare for everybody, and he inflicted damage on Jeffries when he lost the HW Title.

I think a case can be made for little Tommy Burns, who only Jack Johnson ever decked, and it took 14 rounds for Lil' Artha' to land him.

Braddock. Was stopped by a cut left eye against Lou Scozza, but only knocked out by a peaking Joe Louis when hindered by arthritis. Even then, he never took a backwards step, as the Bomber had to outmaneuver him and work his way off the ropes. Braddock more than held his own over the first four rounds. Jimmy famously took the title over the Championship Distance against a peak Max Baer, the consensus hardest puncher of the 1930's. (Louis said the Larruper was the hardest puncher he ever faced, and Maxie had a broken right hand for that one.)

Okay, Norton and RJJ.

 

Primo was never halted by a single shot like Lennox was twice. (In fact, Carnera was ALWAYS on his feet for his stoppage losses.) I just can't see Lennox getting up from the first bomb Max Baer decked Primo with.

Ditto Leon in his prime, Ingo and Michael. (Tyson could well have wiped out Lennox at his own peak. The fastest starting HW Champion since Dempsey did catch the slow starting Jinx cold, as he should have, but the first KD was also achieved by a hook to the head-right to the body combo.)

I'm with you on Moorer and Wlad.

Whether or not Lennox beats Cooney like the Jinx did, Mercado like brother Leon succeeded at stopping, or can withstand the Bingo if Johansson is in shape is (which Ingo wasn't even for Patterson I) is something open to some question. (Granted, Lennox should beat everybody you mentioned, but I've always maintained a true ATG HW Champion does not lose his title during his prime twice to a single punch from two different non HOFers. And what happens if McCall doesn't have a mental breakdown?)

 

Zoning in on singe shots is simply incorrect, disenguous and requires context. It's an extremely narrow way of looking at things. Lewis could easily have been let fight on vs McCall and was factually not acclimatized vs Rahman and dogged it badly in training which is also well documented, and prior to the actual fight. Both of these factors impacted his durability. I'm talking good versions of Lewis.

Lewis was fighting big strong men who hit hard and there are numerous examples of him shipping bombs extremely well.

Michael Spinks was rocked every time Holmes even half caught him. Blind Freddy could see his durability at heavyweight was extremely suspect to put it mildly. He was wobbling from the wind from the Tyson's punches before they reached him. It was hardly a surprise seeing how he took Holmes shots. Lewis has shipped harder punches for less damage. Leon never had that much durability at heavyweight.

Michael Spinks had 5 fights at heavyweight with all of three of them being against top 10 fighters. If he had a dozen fights his durability (or lack thereof) would have been highlighted even more. Leon was stopped 8 times at heavyweight during almost the same number of fights as Lewis.

Primo used to wobble from very innocuous looking punches and had the reputation of being weak chinned.

Ingo had a whopping 28 fights in his life and was stopped twice. In his 28th he was very likely saved by the bell against Brian London.

As for the McCall rematch, just about anybody can see the vast changes in Lewis. That amateurish predictable right hand that he used to finish off balance on was gone and one can plainly see McCall looking for the same gap early and realizing it no longer existed. Stewart had also convinced Lewis to bulk up and he was not 251 pounds vs 238. McCall did his best for a while before getting frustrated and dropping tools. No version of McCall beats that Lewis.

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People here have a funny idea of what constitutes a, “Champion.” Herbie Hide? Bruce Seldon? Please.

In that entire list of nominees, Patterson is the only one who became a Champion.

 

Christ he shipped more nasty punches that i'd remembered on that video. Some BIG punches in there.

Evander Holyfield -

BEST CHIN
George Foreman: I would say George Foreman. I hit him and I hit him a lot of times, a lot of times (Laughs.) … 17 punches one time! Lennox Lewis had a great chin. I went back and watched the fights and the people who knocked him out [did so] because he had a different mindset for them. He didn’t fight smart with them ‘cause he felt he could beat them. Everybody he pursued and thought that he could beat, they ended up knocking him out – that’s Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. I came to respect him ‘cause I know in the last fight I buckled him a few times but he didn’t go. Mike Tyson had a good one, too; he didn’t fall when I hit him.

Tony Tucker -

BEST CHIN
Tyson: I hit him with a good left uppercut that he stood up to. Lennox Lewis took some good shots.

 

I don't know why anyone would ever nominate Patterson for the worst chin when he was only ever knocked out by ATG punchers, or Ali. Whereas somebody like Morrison had his jaw broken by Joe Hipp and was completely knocked out by ****in Michael Bentt.

 

Morrison was never Champion to anyone who understands how Boxing actually works. “Identifying” as a Champion doesn’t cut it.

 

A title is a title regardless of how you consider it in hindsight. It's not like he won the "People's Champion" belt, lol.