Worst style match up for Prime Muhammad Ali of everyone?

Mike Tyson. Tyson Fury too. Drop the nostalgia goggles and really picture that fight. Looks tough for him.

 

Wilt Chamberlain

 

I'll give you Haye, but Usyk doesn't even have a physique that is compatible with someone taking PED's. And YET, Usyk looks BIGGER than Haye did back then, when he essentially had a bodybuilder-esque physique at heavyweight whilst weighing 210-215 pounds. In other words, a cruiser-weight Usyk looks even bigger than heavyweight David Haye.

Small heavyweights like Ali and big cruiser-weights like Usyk are all essentially the same size. You literally have 0 evidence to back up Usyk was on PED's. Need I remind you that PED's also existed during Ali's time too. So I can labor the same accusations to Ali as well.

This is David Haye's physique against Tony Bellew where he looks like a literal bodybuilder:

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Tony+Bellew+Tony+Bellew+Vs+David+Haye+Weigh+slK8gAAbE_ml.jpg


This is Usyk's 'natural' looking physique, where one can clearly see he is barrel-chested and has a massive frame:

http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Oleksandr+Usyk+Preview+British+Lionhearts+sTvkI1CIRval.jpg


And this is Muhammad Ali during his 'fleet-footed' days, when he was a cruiser-weight:

http://bayimg.com/3447b47b689ee39e54923991df49eba8eb2a97d0.jpg


And this is 'heavyweight' Ali who was essentially a punching-bag and no longer 'fleet-footed':

http://www.heavyweightblog.com/wp-c...ement.aspx(percnt)3Fid(percnt)3DU1996869A.gif

Only 'heavyweight' Ali was truly 220+ pounds but then, he wasn't even fleet-footed anymore.


Ali was 'heavier' than Usyk because he was FATTER. Usyk with the same fat percentage, would weigh roughly the same.

Heavyweight division started at 176 pounds back in Ali's day. Usyk would easily be a heavyweight during that time period. And only during that time, was Ali 'fleet-footed'. When he started weighing as much as what a modern heavyweight would need to weigh, he became a punching-bag.

So this idea that Ali was ALWAYS 220+ pounds is a myth! Heck, Ali didn't even win Olympic gold in the heavyweight or the cruiser-weight division, but at LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT. Let that sink in! Ali simply added fat and got heavier as he grew older. It's really that simple! This really isn't much different to Usyk who could do the same thing.

I don't care if many think Ali is the greatest. Many also thought the Earth was flat for centuries. Popular beliefs mean nothing to me! Evidence do! And according to evidence, Usyk > Ali.

And if Usyk can evade punches with his guard up, then he absolutely can with his guard down, since it's far easier to evade without a guard as you have more freedom of movement and less weight restricting you.

You keep mentioning this 'touching up' idea, like Ali was NEVER touched up in his life or any boxer out there is immune to getting touched up. Last time I checked, it's Ali who's been dropped, hurt, stunned and also ended up having Parkinson disease. So return to me when Usyk also has those same things happen to him, especially when he shows signs of brain-damage like Ali did.

So yeh, Ali was touched up more and easier to touch-up. A few clips of him evading punches, doesn't overrule the higher number of times he has been touched up.

And also, you won't find a single boxer who has NEVER been 'touched up'. I challenge you find any!

 

You are showing me a picture of usyk from 2013, all that has done has shown me is it has taken the 6 years for him from his late twenties with the training in the weight room and if not peds protein weight gain shakes to get to 200lbs plus you are confirming my argument. This is a picture of Ali around 20 years old we all know he was light under 22 years old wasn’t we all? but in his relative prime from 22 -25 years first career before the lay off and before (his real prime) we didn’t get to see, he was a trained down 210-215 fighter that’s fact. its also fact that after 28-29 years old Ali used to train down from 235-40 regularly to get to around 218- mid 220lbs almost your dehydrating cruiserweight style but much heavier, and then you show Me a drawn picture of a very old out of shape Ali who never fought in a profession bout in this shape in his life , even at 40 years old and just shy of 240lbs with Parkinson’s against berbeck he was in better shape than that drawing, is this another joke. We all know Ali’s 2nd career a lot of his speed went to the 3 and a half to four year lay off and age and he became a different fighter and got hit a lot that also fact, but he also faced far better opposition at that stage than usyk will probably ever face and still prevailed a lot of the time, and yes it damaged him and it wasn’t smart in the end. but the next joke is usyk has only had 16 fights in Ali first 16 fights he didn’t hardly get hit that’s also fact,I’m afraid you are losing credibility with this bull and I haven’t got time to go round and round with jokers lol

 

Usyk is not greater than Ali. Not in the least.

When Ali was 18, in 1960, he won the gold medal at the Rome Olympics. When Usyk was 19, he lost to Shawn Porter (yes, the current Welterweight titlist Shawn Porter) in a USA-Ukraine Dual tournament.

When Ali was 22, he stopped Sonny Liston for the world heavyweight title. When Usyk was 22, he lost to Egor Mekhontsev in the amateur championships.

Usyk is 32. He's 16-0. At the same age, Ali was 45-2 and had just knocked out George Foreman to win the undisputed world heavyweight title for the second time.

When Ali was 32, he'd already BEATEN more Hall of Famers than Usyk has had cruiserweight title fights.

And here's Ali at 32 training for Foreman.

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If you think he gained weight by just adding "fat," you're blind as well.

Here's Usyk, at 32, training for his first heavyweight fight - before he hurt himself and had to postpone it - probably because he was trying to do a handstand. Or maybe he curled one of the balls he was juggling too hard.

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Usyk is a solid fighter. But he's no Ali. Not even remotely close.

 

@john roberts:

You responded to me first. If you don't like someone criticizing your religious hero that is Ali, then consider not tagging that individual. Not everyone sees Ali as some religious figure who could never be criticized as you do, judging by your overly-emotional outburst.

Ali never got hit in his first 16 fights? Have you even checked the record of those first 16 opponents? They have triple digit losing records combined and nearly all are bums with more losses than wins. You do realize this same can be said of Usyk too, He barely even got touched by his first ten opponents that were of a similar level. So your point is kind of moot!

Oh, and Usyk has faced better opposition. Breidis and Gassiev are better than Ali's best wins.

Usyk is also a TRAINED down 200 pound fighter. He literally has to dehydrate himself to even make the cruiser-weight limit. And when he BARELY rehydrates on fight night, he still weighs around 210 pounds:

Usyk actually weighs around 210 pounds on fight-night. That is whilst dehydrating himself and barely rehydrating. A fully hydrated Usyk would be weighing well above 210 pounds.

https://ibb.co/dFFUKR

https://ibb.co/gst8eR

Here, he weighs in at 211 pounds:

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Usyk would have no problem weighing 210 - 220 pounds, whilst still being in peak condition and athleticism. You literally have no basis to assume Usyk would not retain his speed and elusiveness at that weight, when in REALITY, he has actually PROVEN he can, when he fought in the WSB whilst weighing 210+ pounds.

Funny how Ali NEVER had a proper visible 6 pack even whilst weighing under 220 pounds. Yet, somehow he dehydrates himself down from 240 pounds. Very funny indeed!

Here is some truth! At 240 pounds, Ali would be a fat dude, not much different from Usyk weighing 240 pounds. Usyk not in fighting shape and in holiday, would probably also weigh 230+ pounds. Usyk dehydrates himself down to 200 pounds to fight at cruiser-weight.

 

If you're referring to topics outside of boxing abilities inside the ring, then possibly not. But inside the ring, not only is Usyk 'GREATER' than Ali, but is so by quite some margin!

Your childish argument can be easily reversed:

- Usyk comes from the Soviet Bloc, where boxers start their pro career later because they have many more amateur fights. So Muhammad Ali's greater success at ages when Usyk wasn't even allowed to turn pro, is totally irrelevant.

- Usyk is also a amateur world champion. Ali never was one!

- Usyk also won Olympic gold at the amateur European championships. Ali never won an equivalent in his own continent

- Hall of fame awards are an American invention. So an American beating other American 'hall of famers' chosen by Americans, is a useless and a totally subjective accomplishment. Doesn't prove anything in regards to superiority (or lack of compared to Usyk).

- Muhammad Ali also never beat a single boxer from the Soviet Bloc, unlike Usyk.

- Better to suffer muscle injuries as Usyk did, than to suffer from Parkinson disease as Ali did, because he couldn't avoid getting hit in his head due to his horrible reflexes and defense.


There you have it! You're going to have to try harder, if you want to actually make your case in a debate that is of higher standard than that of arguments at the level of a child.

Furthermore, Ali never showed his 'fleet-footed' footwork after he started weighing above 220 pounds. Heck, even above 215 pounds. The fleet-footed Ali was the cruiser-weight / light heavyweight Ali by modern standards who weighed below 200 pounds.

The heavyweight division started at 176 pounds during Ali's time, which is less than today's female heavyweight limit. Just to keep in perspective what the standards of being a 'heavyweight' was, back THEN.

This means, by today's standard, Ali would've been a cruiser-weight in the early stage of his career too, much like Usyk.

 

Me emotional, calm down son if you can’t agree with my points that’s fine don’t get so touchy, your wrong in my opinion, you are coming out with outlandish statements again like Ali hasn’t fought anybody better than Gassiev or Briedis in his career, do you know How silly that sounds. And yes usyk is 210 on fight night but 210 Ali was more 220 we have been through all this but we will have to agree to disagree I have a life to get on with. Ps you can have the last word if it means that much to you lol

 

I always thought gene tunney could give ali hell

 

Style wise — Frazier,Tyson,Marciano, Norton....crouch fighters gave Ali the most problems..... taller stand up fighters were easier for him.

 

My General Prime-o-meter Depending on how many fights.... they are rookies up to 4 years.
Should be title ready 3-5 years.

Starts career in 1960
By 15 fights he fought no fighter with a losing record & defeated Archie Moore as a rookie, not a champ. Plus Archie Moore hadn't lost but one fight between 1957-1962.
So Clay fights a legend in his 2nd year (rookie).

Doug Jones just avenged his loss to Zora Folly by KO as well as stopping a young Bob Foster. CLay went toe to toe and eeked out a decision, however he seemed to learn some things that he would employ in his next few fights & would NEVER do them again when he came back.
1. That is shooting jabs to the body (Liston & Cleveland Williams). He followed up body to head & threw shots moving forward (post 1970 he never went to the body again & always threw moving away) hence why everyone went 15 rounds with him.

IMO Prime Ali as close as we can get would be 1964-1967
That dude in 1967 was the 1st HW to use lateral movement consistently. He got it from Ray Robinson ( a WW's) style.
Any HW today, who moves has to give credit to Ali aka Clay.
His punches were enough that he could slash, cut and bust up fighters from Cooper, Liston to Williams they all either bled, swelled up against that 20something year old fella.
Even though Clay had similar height to Cleveland, he literally got under his punches. Meaning head movement. post 1970s? None.


Anyone stands a chance of having a bad style against a boxer who stopped hitting to the body, threw moving away & leaned on the ropes like a dope as a means of defense. 1970-1975ish He was a good boxer, but without Foreman win, nothing suggests Ali was close to being great.
During his prime? 1964-1967 He was close to untouchable. 1st ever to predict the round in several fights, that's special!

Now Tunney as someone stated did have movement, so he may have had success. Also Jack Johnson was ahead of his time. He knew when to throw, when to clinch when to close the distance, in great shape, KO power. Had he lived in 1960s or 2018 he would have been just as congenial in any time frame, heck he pointed out in Ring Magazine that Joe Louis was mechanical and susceptible to right hands- the very means which Max beat him. IMO that means Jack was smart, ring savvy. Those 2 come close, that's it.

 

That wasn't Ali's fault. I'm pretty sure this is because, under the Communist regimes in the Soviet Bloc (and Communist Cuba), Soviet Bloc Boxers weren't allowed to turn professional by their system, and thus had to remain strictly amateur. Hungarian Laszlo Papp was allowed to turn professional by the Hungarian regime after winning his third Olympic gold medal at the 1956 Olympics, but was shut down from having a Middleweight world title fight (he was about to receieve a shot at then champion Joey Giardello). The Communist authorities revoked his Visa and deemed it incompatible with the Communist ideal that a man could earn more in one day than a regular man on the street could earn in a lifetime.

 

Norton obviously.
I also believe Vitali would win at least 4 out of 5 times, even with biased judges.

 

I agree. Lennox Lewis has the power also to hurt Ali. He d be one of Muhammad s worst guys to fight.

 

Alexander Povetkin and Tim Witherspoon came up on stylistic grounds when the Classic forum discussed it.