Would a prime Sonny Liston KO the 1971 Ali who fought Frazier?

By how much, though? Watch Ali vs Chuvalo in 1966; he lays on the ropes plenty of times and wasn't on his toes all the time, at all. You have to know that Frazier made Ali fight at a tremendous pace: a pace the classical boxer doesn't want to fight. Liston would never be able to do that. Does that mean Ali will dance around all 15 if he has to? No, he'll always take breaks, but he won't be the corpse that fought Shavers, either. He was on his toes for the first half of the Norton rematch (which is two years later than Frazier I), for all three rounds of the Quarry fight, etc. The idea that Ali danced 24/7 in the 60's is a myth.

Watching Ali vs Frazier, he is faster than Liston has ever been.

Well, certainly Shavers and Liston have their power, speed, height and weight in common. That's about as far as it goes, of course. But the fact that Ali still beat him when he had absolutely nothing left goes to show you how well he matches up with big, slow punchers.. Shavers lacks a lot of qualities compared to Liston, but all of those go out of the window once he connects; which he did plenty against an old Ali; yet Ali took it... which indicates that he may well be able to survive scary moments against Liston as well.

And the same goes for Foreman, who has a significant size advantage of Liston. You can say Foreman did something embarrassing against Ali, but Liston didn't exactly shine against Ali, either.

Don't get me wrong; i will be the first to admit that Foreman is crude, and in terms of pure boxing ability can't hold a candle compared to Liston (as does Shavers), but i just can't overlook the stylistic advantages that Ali enjoys over Liston. The cute speedster always beats the technical master. Roy Jones over James Toney and Bernard Hopkins. Ali vs Liston in 64. Calzaghe over Kessler. Etc, etc. Like Jones vs Hopkins, '71 Ali couldn't keep it up constantly (unless Liston quits), but still able to rest without losing many points or getting hit much. Ali always found a way for that. Holding behind the head, making the opponent waste his energy on the ropes, etc.

 

I'd be surprised if Liston could have KOed Ali. One heck of a fight and perhaps Ali by UD or perhaps even SD.

In my view the best version of Ali would have occured during his enforced 3 year layoff ie between fighting Folley (Mar '67) and Quarry (Oct '70). I think the Ali we never saw during that period, would very probably have been the greatest heavyweight ever!

 

NO:nono

 

ChrisPontius, the Chuvalo fight you mentioned is a good point. Ali didn't let Chuvalo get him on the ropes, George muscled him there and let go with alot of body punches. Ali once mentioned that in the Bonavena and first Frazier fights his legs seemed to have lost their ability to move as they had before. In the second Frazier fight we see Ali dancing again, a little slower perhaps then at his best, but still more then any other big heavy.

 

I think Ali's big problem in F0TC (except for, of course, that he met the machine of destruction that was Frazier that night) was that he was unsure just how much his body would give him at this point. Against Quarry he came out dancing, but admittted himself that he was "schocked" at how much those 3 rounds took out him. Therefore he comes out flat footed against Bonavena in his next fight, a fight that didn't really seem to give the answers he was looking for.

I think that this uncertainity made it difficult for him to make a perfect gameplan for FOTC. And the margin for error was very small considering the extreme pressure Fraazier put him under at all times. Against Liston I think this margin would be wider, and he could probably feel a bit more free to dance for a while and see how his legs responded.

In his very next match, against Ellis, Ali showed very good movement all things considered. He said himself that he wanted to try and see if he still could dance thoughout a fight. Against Ellis he had the confidence to try this.

 

No, I don't think so. Ali was excellent (well, very good) in '71 and it took everything a prime and 1000% motivated Joe Frazier had to beat him. Even then he spent a week in the hospital. Frazier also brought a pressure that even Liston at his best didn't have, and he did not let Ali rest for a second.

The Liston figh would be totally different to FOTC, being fought at a slower pace for one thing. That can only help Ali.

 

Larry Holmes did (TKO 11 if I remember correctly).

 

Damn good question.

No I don't think a prime Liston would KO a 1971 Ali (1971 Ali had a hell of a chin and an inner strength that refused to be KOed) but he could win on points. (The Liston that Ali/Clay beat was not prime, prime Liston was several years before he became champion)

 

liston would have a better chance that's for sure. ali could tire badly after the mid rounds and if liston was in good shape then he has a chance of an upset. i think whoever wins the battle of the jab wins this one. 1964 Ali moved quicker.

 

Ali bigger, stronger and better than the 64 version. Do not mistake skittishness for mobility. Ali still had very much of the latter and had lost the former. Ali stops Liston, and in quicker time.

 

Nope.
A prime Listen hard a hard time with Machan.

 

Exactly.

Liston is soooooooooooooooo over rated it is not even funny. His whole repertoire is based on Patterson. That iron chinned superheavyweight. Oh , I forgot, the Louis/Marciano/Dempsey reincarnation Cleveland Williams.

This bad ass could not ko a green BLIND Clay but now he is going to beat a early seventies Ali ? LOL. What you experts do not realize is that Ali sat down more on his punches while still maintaining excellent speed plus he was physiclly stronger, if Foreman could not bully him around with pure strengh than the weaker equally slow Liston ain't got no prayer.

Result: same outcome as the original fights, Ko or plain jane quit job.Guaranteed.

BTW, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Vk, WK will duplicate the Ali performance. Some of them much faster.

 

the thing that helped joe beat ali wasn't his power it was his ability to change plans and change pace when ever needed to suite him agianst alis ever changeing plans... now sonny he didnt have the ability to do that ..he either got you out of there or went through the motions .. that was it there was no plan b plan c plan d .... thats what would kill him every time agianst ali