Would Ali be too small for today's heavyweight division?

1) Mr. Magoo Game, Set & Match.

2) The most extreme view here said that Ali would be 230-235 today which he may well be, but he may NOT be. Whether a maverick would adjust his training & be willing to sacraice speed when you have THINNER guys today like Wilder-is quite unknown.

3) 230-235 is & 6' 3", especially lean, is LARGER than most listed, as per Mr. Magoo.

4) We have no convincing evidence that Ali would need to bulk up at all today, or he would do better doing so. Would additional strength be worst lost speed, endurance & work rate?

5) It is resolutely absurd to think there is any even circumstantial evidence that Ali used PEDs.

As many have said, Ali was YOUNG. 18-22 during the time period mentioned.
Though I want to see where he weighed 210 in early 1964, this % of weight gain when so young & still GROWING & filling out as is ROUTINE, espeically in the past, so young....

Is not at all a lot.
Some have been listed who gained more weight,=especially as a PERCENTAGE of body weight.

This also happened before steroids were widespread or even INVENTED in some cases.

I have lifted for years & seen many users.
There is basic CONFUSION about some facts amongst some.

Besides yes that PEDs would have been virtually unkown in boxing in the early '60's-& they became big in other sports besides weightlifting only ~ '68 & Mexico City...

Ali was not at all "bulky".
They did not even HAVE the type of steroids (that A-Rod took) back then: that could maximize strength while minimizing gain of muscle.
Moore, Langford & others clearly gained MORE muscle especially as a &% of size...Naturally.

Gain of significant musle, especially quickly & when not still naturally filling out due to being very young AND when already well built-like a Barry Bonds-is suspicious. Nothing about Ali's weight gain is remotely suspicious.

So while anything is POSSIBLE...
Liike any of us COULD be an axe murderer...

There is both no evidence that Ali ever took any steroids.
No suspicious gain of muscle or strength.


And it is very unlikely he did take any PEDs.

It would be nice if an uninformed speculator who has no specific even theoretical rejoinder that is credible...

Would admit that, as many have told him here...

He is clearly completely wrong.

And did not comprehend the basic facts of natural weight gains & what are RATIONAL signs of likely use of androgens. :desk:desk


This at best completely uninformed speculation about cheating is unfair to Ali.

The Golden Rule again applies.

 

When discussing Ali's skill, I think most gets too hung up on his flaws. To say he was all about speed and reflexes at first, and then grit and clinching is simplifying almost to the point of imbecility.

He had as good timing and judge of distance as any HW ever. Great balance when punching (compare his lead rights to a Hopkins's for example) and put together excellent combinations. All here who has ever been exhausted in sparring or during a boxing match will have an idea about what it takes to put together punches and combinations like Ali did when beyond exhaustion in Manilla. And that was past prime Ali.

He was also had perhaps the smoothest movements of any HW, and superb awareness all the time of his position and what was coming at him. These are skills. Perhaps not fundamentals, but still something you hone through thousand of hours of training.

Add to that extreme ring smarts, and you have a very canny operator in there.

Something his opponents readily testified to. Bugner for example makes a good read: http://ringtv.craveonline.com/news/330445-best-ive-faced-joe-bugner

 

But Wlad beat little 210 pound Chris Byrd to become HW Champ.

Who is better? ... Ali or a past prime shot to bits Chris Byrd?

210 pound David Haye was Wlads biggest fight.

Who is better? Ali or Haye who struggled with Chisora before quitting the sport with only 5 HW wins against nobodies to his name.

Wlad fanbois liked to argue that Wlad would have been far to much for Ali until the Jennings fights shattered that notion.

 

Let me go one step further. Holtfield wasn't to small for the 90's era. A far greater era than todays rank era.
He was the only man in the 90's to beat ATGS Rid**** Bowe and Mike Tyson.

 

As said earlier, Robinson and Louis had similar relative weight gain. And didn't Langford as well? Johnson put on some 20 lbs while in his 20's if I remember correctly. Were they also on the juice?

Patterson won the Olympic gold as a MW, so there's another one. And Ellis campaigned as a pro MW in his 20's, but was at about 200 lbs just a couple of years later. Duran started as a FW, but was solid at WW in his late 20's. PED users, all of them?

 

You literally don't know what you are talking about. Jack Johnson was 185 against Langford and 208 vs Jeffries, four years apart. A hundred years ago. You are just wrong.

 

:rofl
Take away Wlad and None of them will ever be hall of famers. The last HW hall of famer was Rid**** Bowe and Lennox Lewis before him. None of them will remembered , never mind enter the hall of fame.
Do you want to list those 5 to make me laugh?

This is no good.

If Ali was around in this era , he would not have been severely battle worn from hard fights by the age of 35 like he was in the 70's
Most likely he'd be fresh as a daisy so you can't say how Povetkin would be facing the Ali who was worn down by savage hitters like Liston, Foreman , Frazier , Shavers , Lyle etc.

Put Povetkin back in those tiames and he could have been in a worse state of shot to **** by age 35.

 

@John Galt

This is the time to admit you were wrong (if you need to read the replies to your posts to do that)

 

You clearly suggested he was on the juice:

"It's interesting that none of you suspect Ali of ever using PEDs. He was 178 pounds in the summer of 1960 and in early 1964 he was 210 - with NO more body fat than he had at 178. According to Dundee, Ali drank a lot of Pepsi. So, a guy gains 32 pounds of solid muscle in three years and there is no suspicion?

What would have caused the gain? Jogging, hitting the heavy bag, jumping rope, drinking Pepsi? Ali had a doctor in his camp, PEDs were not illegal until around 1990, there was no testing for PEDs. PEDs were being used in many sports, Ali had been to the Olympics, surely he knew what PEDs were and one would assume Pacheco did too.

Ali was having a tough time with some of his competition, before he was champion, then suddenly there was huge improvement. He was bigger, stronger, and faster than the rest, and dominated. To me, there is suspicion."


After that examples of similar weight gain before PEDs were even invented was named. Johnson among them. So why not just you admit you were over the top?

 

Oh the old 'I didn't call you stupid but...' routine. Classic.

I have no problem with denouncing Ali. Scream it to the heavens. He was racist, benefited from several close decisions, and was a little dirty.

But you are wrong and simply don't want to admit it. Instead you hide behind semantics.

 

No. Ali was 6'3" w an eighty inch reach. He had big legs .. if he fought today he would easily be 225 in shape and that is more than fine.

 

Now you're just plainly lying. For anyone who can read it's clear you suggested it.

And do you feel a similar suspicion against Louis, Robinson and Patterson?

Not to mention more modern weight climbers like Hearns and Spinks?

Because otherwise you kind of reek of an agenda.

 

I'll bow out of this by saying that you're clearly not doing yourself any favors here. There really isn't necessarily any shame in admitting you were off base when your arguments don't hold water, but just plowing on when it's painfully clear you've lost the argument makes you seem a bit silly.

 

wrong,ali had 78 inch reach.it was measured on tv when he was with wilt chamberlain.

as far as ali weight,i alsho think he could have been 225 rock solid today,with weight training and possibly peds...

 

I accept this problem as a Jack Dempsey apologist, but it should not be a serious issue for Ali fan's.

He was well within the medium height/reach/weight range for a modern heavyweight, even given the rolls of fat that occasionally hang over their trunks.