Would Ali be too small for today's heavyweight division?

Thyrolar and Benzedrine are two separate substances. Who the doctor was, and why Thyrolar was prescribed, are both suspicious. From what I've read, he was prescribed it in the absence of supporting bloodwork (which was normal a couple of months earlier) which is unheard of. He was either attempting to cheat or attempting to look really cut.

 

Cheers for the endorsement about the nonsense people spout regarding drugs, and fighters.

If it is sessions you are after Mac, I would go for the Estrella, or Mahou, and even then I go by the colour. If it is the one in either a green bottle, or from a green pump it is fine, the red bottles, and draught are stronger, and if its black it is fukking rocket fuel.

Cruz Campo is generally considered to be polish, but Amstel is fairly good.

Went to an Irish wedding in Marbella a couple of weeks back, and the Irish tend to find their own bars when abroad, and the one they found was convenient, but expensive? Don't ask. I was paying the same prices almost that I would be paying back in London.

I don't know how pricey it is in Sevilla, but I suspect you and your pals will have it figured out.

 

Ped talk is boring:tired

 

No, read Hauser's book. He was prescribed it by his doctor for a medical condition.

 

OK thanks for all the info O.I.

Look it is not just "probably" Ali did not use steroids.

According to all your info, & what is known about boxing, even in track & field it did not become common-as per accelerated rates of record breaking-until the late '60's.

It was not at all common, maybe virtually unknown, in boxing by then, fuhgeiitabout the early-mid 60's.

Ali's weight gain for 4 years starting at 18 & literally still growing & filling out was not remotely suspicious.

He was not even lifting or doing anything special To bulk up.

He did not end up very bulky.
look at your poster of him again: he was strong & big, never ever actually had great muscular hypertrophy for his frame & potential.

All indications-& the list of steroids available ANYTIME in the '60's-show they were the old-line drugs that bulk you up, not maximize strength per mass.

In short, it is not just "unlikely" Ali used these PEDs. It is exceedingly unlikely.


Now the debate above re: whether Ali took something entirely different is exceedingly irrelevant to our discussion.

If Ali took these things without proper medical approval....
They were only to lose weight only HARMED his performance.

OK, we can examine more closely records that are broken by over 2%.
but recall that while many of those might be GUILTY: some will be clean.
Due to advances in technology, nutrition, great talent & genetics...

And some records are not set by those who are dirty.
How often they ARE depends upon the sport.
How well regulated & degree of advantage gained through cheating.
STILL everyone who CAN cheat does not. And it is deeply unfair to assume all are guilty absent decent evidence.


One more thing.

I have lifted for YEARS. It is uncommon, but I occasionally see or hear about guys who can be 6'2", 250 lbs., & ~ 10% body fat & NATURAL for a lifetime!

Because they both have huge bones that add weight, & all that skeletal mass allows them to attach more muscle.
Also those types tend naturally to have superior hormonal factors.

Then there is someone like the nerdy, unattractive guy now in his 60's I saw occasionally for years. He juices & got UP to a 42" chest-while overweight, which adds non-muscle mass-& 15" arms. Nothing huge.


My point is there is OVERLAP between what a natural, very well trained, hard working & genetically gifted individual can achieve: & a CHEATER who is drugging.

Just having 18" arms, in the past 19", some may assume I used drugs, though never would even take Creatine.
And many have more natural potential than me.

You CANNOT fairly & rationally ONLY look at size & strength gains & consider it damning evidence....

UNLESS it is so exceptional & rapid to EXCEED what is possible for virtually anyone.

So an ALREADY muscular dude quickly gaining a lot of muscle: THAT is suspicious.
Ali as a tall skinny KID who strove to make the LHW limit going over 200 lbs. in 4 years was NEVER remotely suspicious.

A Ronnie Coleman who under 6' tall & at a very cut & low body fat (~ 5% max) competition weight was 300 lbs.: THAT is clearly well beyond the capacity of any natural or non-genetically modified individual.


But do not be too quick to assume a remarkable performance must or is even LIKELY dirty.

before steroids or HGH even EXISTED some broke records by over 9%.

Thanks for listening.

 

You don't know what you're talking about. The "medical condition" of hypothyroidism was diagnosed without testing. And Benzedrine is a straight amphetamine and not a thyroid drug. It was a strange situation.

 

Good debate here, Entaowed.

The bit of color I have to add is more about the competitive climate of the era and of athlete knowledge.

From the 90's on, athletes began to become more and more aware of what was going in to their bodies. In the dawn of the PED era, this wasn't particularly true. In hindsight, athletes from the 60's now know they were on something, but at the time, it was simply a coach or the team Dr. giving you "vitamins". They were intentionally sheltered.

Nowhere was this more common than in the Olympics (and, beginning a few years later, professional sports beginning with the NFL). Remember too that this was an era where they weren't even illegal or banned in sport- that didn't happen until much later down the road. International tensions were also sky high with the Cold War in swing.

The argument I'm framing here is that, moreso than any other time in history, there was ample motivation for systemic doping programs in Olympic sport, and those programs didn't necessarily need to have the athletes in on it (the East German program certainly didn't). There were no laws stopping it and the stakes were high. Even if an individual athlete chose not to do everything in their power, Uncle Sam could make that choice for them without their knowledge.

1960 was the first Olympics that the U.S. team started to use.

I have my doubts that it filtered on to the Olympic boxing team that quickly, personally. But the sensibilities towards PED's of the era at large were far different than today; I can't say I'd be surprised at all if Ali took something, knowing or unknowing, over the course of his career that'd ring up as a banned substance today. The stigma just didn't exist towards the substances at large, and nor did the laws- so if something worked, why wouldn't he? In a "win at all costs" sport like boxing, athletes have been pushing and breaking ethical boundaries to win since the sports inception.

Without those boundaries there in the first place, it'd seem smarter to bet the cream of the crop was doing everything they could to win.

Exactly what substances those would've been, is impossible to know.

This isn't meant to dis Ali, but to remember that framing other eras by our standards distorts things. If Muhammad were on PED's at some point over the course of his career, it would've been perfectly legal for him to do so. Hiding what those substances were would have much less to do with public scorn, fines, or punishments, and much more to do with protecting "trade secrets" so others couldn't replicate that particular trainer/doctor's blend.

 

His doctor was probably inept, yes. But the fact remains that Ali took what his doctor prescribed for what the doctor perceived as a medical condition.

Read the book. The doctor in question is interviewed there.

 

James Toney was prescribed steroids before fighting Ruiz.

 

OK thanks for all the info O.I.

Look it is not just "probably" Ali did not use steroids.

According to all your info, & what is known about boxing, even in track 7 field it did not become common-as per accelerated rates of record breaking-until the late '60's.

It was not at all common in boxing by then, fuhgeiitabout the early-mid 60's.

Ali's weight gain for 4 years starting at 18 & literally still growing & filling out was not remotely suspicious.

He was not lfting or doing anything special To bulk up.

He did not end up very bulky.

All indications-& the list of steroids available ANYTIME in the '60's-ishow they were the old-line drugs that bulk you up, not maximize strength per mass.

In short, it is not just "unlikely" Ali used these PEDs. It is exceedingly unlikely.


Now the debate above re: whether Ali took something entirely different is exceedingly irrelevant to our discussion.

If Ali took these things without proper medical approval....
They were only to lose weight only HARMED his performance.

OK, we can examine more closely records that are broken by over 2%.
but recall that while many of those might be GUILTY: some will be clean.
Due to advances in technology, nutrition, great talent & genetics...

And some records are not set by those who are dirty.
How often they ARE depends upon sports.


One more thing.

I have lifted for YEARS. It is uncommon, but I occasionally see or hear about guys who can be 6'2", 250 lbs., & ~ 10% body fat & NATURAL for a litfetime!

Because they both have huge bones that add weight, & that skeltal mass allows them to attach more muslcle.

Then there is someone like the nerdy, unattractive guy now in his 60's I saw occasionally for years. He juices & got UP to a 42" chest-while overweight, which adds non-muscle mass-& 15" arms. Nothing huge.


My point is there is OVERLAP between what a natural, very well trained, hard working & genetically gifted individual can achieve: & a CHEATER who is drugging.

Just having 18" arms, in the past 19", some may assume I used drugs, though never would even take Creatine.
And many have more natural potential than me.

You CANNOT fairly & rationally ONLY look at size & strength gains 7 consider it damning evidence....

UNLESS it is so exceptional & rapid to EXCEED what is possible for virtually anyone.

So an ALREADY muscular dude quickly gaining a lot of muscle: THAT is suspicious.
Ali as a tall skinnny KID who strove to make the LHW limit going over 200 lbs. in 4 years was NEVER remotely suspicious.

A Ronnie Coleman who under 6' tall & at a very cut & low body fat competition weight was 300 lbs.: THAT is beyond the capacity of any natural or non-genetically modified individual.


But do not be too quick to assume a remarkable performance must or is even LIKELY dirty.

before steroids or HGH even EXISTED some broke records by over 9%.

Thanks for listening.

 

OK interesting Rock thanks.

I know about things being considered OK, but I did not realize that giving steroids secretly was at all common for the US teams.

So this description would exculpate ali.
But I still see no LIKLIHOOD that he used.

Or that the boxing team did in the window when he was on the US Olympic team.

And you did not address at all that his rate of weight & muscle gain starting FROM a very young skinny kid was not at all suspicious.
I would wonder if a team would give it to guys & not even give them muscle building instructions! Because that would waste much of the effect of the drugs.

Ali just has no indications of someone who took androgens.

 

Just give it up will you.

 

And that medical condition was that Ali was unable to touch the tip of his nose with his finger.

 

If Muhammad Ali did indeed employ the use of performance enhancers it sure as hell didn't show or assist him in any way, especially not in old age. His figure was drastically diminishing by about 1976 ( at age 34 ) as were his performances. As already mentioned he was prescribed some meds for health reasons, but I don't think these had a positive bearing on his abilities if any at all.

 

Ali was actually 6'2", not 6'3", not that it matters all that much. Ali himself said he was 6'2". Holmes and Foreman were both 6'3" guys, and they were slightly taller than Ali. (Foreman was listed as being 6'3" all during his first career, yet upon returning to the ring in 1987, he was listed as being 6'4").