Would Ali beat a prime Liston?

I guess that you have to look at the series of events.

Fight 1

If Liston was going to throw the first fight, it seems unlikely that he would do it by quitting on his stool in the seventh round. That would be quite a precarious scenario to stage manage.

The fluid that blinded Clay further supports the fight being on the level, because Liston certainly wouldn’t have tried to cheat if he was there to loose.

It can be verified that Liston sustained a shoulder injury either before or during the fight, which would give an added explanation for his decision to quit.

Most of the stories about the first fight being fixed emerged well after the event.

All in all, the idea of the fight being fixed does not quite add up.

Fight 2

An irregular betting pattern emerged before the fight, and none of the major venues would touch it, with the result that it was held in a school sports hall.
Going down in the first round is the most failsafe way to throw a fight, but Ali departed from that script, resulting in some truly bizarre refereeing decisions from Jersey Joe Walcott.

Liston was a durable fighter, and Ali while great, was not a dynamite puncher.

A lot is explained if the fight was fixed, and a lot is not if it wasn’t.

 

I agree with you about the second fight. Walcott's handling of the knockdown would have been a major scandal, but all the post fight discussion centered on the phantom punch. Regardless of how or why Liston went down, the big question mark is Walcott's behavior. It reeks of a fix.

The first fight:
Liston did have a legitimate shoulder injury. He had petitioned the Miami Beach Boxing Commission to postpone the fight, but it refused.
After the fight, eight doctors who had examined the x-rays, examined Liston or both, submitted affidavits that Liston's left shoulder would have made him unable to defend himself.
I think Liston thought he could beat Clay, shoulder or not. It's also possible that his Mob handlers had told him to lose and the shoulder didn't matter.

 

Before he died, Angelo Dundee admitted that he didn't believe that Liston put anything on his gloves:

"... this week Angelo Dundee, Clay's legendary trainer, finally dismissed that theory. Dundee, 82, revealed: 'People said Liston put liniment on his gloves to blind Ali, but that was a crock."

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/liston-didnt-blind-ali-6987354.html

 

OK, it could have been a legitimate mistake then.

 

I have to agree - with his great speed Ali in his prime would have outpointed the Bear but was not likely to TKO him as he did.

The question I've always had is, what was Liston's real age? This can help us determine whether he was still in his prime in Feb 1964 at the time of the first fight. I have seen different accounts which say he was born in 1928 (which could have made him 36 years old) or May, 1932 which would have made him 31 at that fight. The 4-5 year gap would be a huge difference.

Assuming he was 31 then it is likely he was still in his prime.

Assuming he was 36, well then it is safe to say he may have been beyond that.

 

Well if Liston couldn't KO a blinded Ali/Clay how the hell was he going to beat An Ali with 2 good eyes? For a whole round Clay could barely see anything let alone Liston and Sonny couldn't hurt him despite his vaunted power and Sonny was giving it his all in that round. A younger Liston might have fared better but he still would've lost. Ali/Clay was too big and mobile and his hand speed was far faster than Liston's. It's a styles thing and Ali had the right style for Liston.

 

Yes, and it was Ali who actually started that "crock" about Liston blinding him.

 

I think what's generally forgotten in all of this is Ali's performance in the first fight.
After almost having his block knocked off in his previous fight against the smaller Cooper, mentally he was completely tuned in against Liston. Where as he'd clowned around against Cooper he was much tighter and more disciplined against Liston,his performance is very underrated in that fight.

 

In my mind it's a pretty sure bet that the versions of Ali from 1964 onwards through to 1975 would always have found a way to best the prime incarnation of Liston.

 

Im a big fan of Liston but only a so-so fan of Ali.Liston's plodding style with his back foot directly behind his front foot means his lateral movement will suffer.
Any amateur trainer will teach a modern fighter to have his back foot offset from his front to move better !!!
Liston would never be able to cut the ring down on Ali.the best a prime Liston could do is to go the distance, albeit with a lumpy face.

 

Prime wouldn't have a made a difference...Clay got into Liston's head...and stayed there...

 

:yep:good!

 

Yes, while Liston may have been a little more off peak, recall it was only close on the cards when Liston quit WITH Ali's temporary blinding.
That was a remarkable thing to work through.

 

Also Ali had n't yet reached his own peak