Would Ali beat a prime Liston?

Great to see Liston getting such good press in here. By the time he fought Ali he was indeed on the decline. As stated above he has excellent technique and is well schooled in the fundamentals. Very underrated in these aspects.

Styles go against him here and he would not beat Ali. The slightly slower punchers like Liston and Foreman do not match up well with Ali. A puncher like Tyson would give him more trouble with his sheer hand speed allied to the two handed power.

I could see Liston with his straighter sharper punches outslugging Foreman. I could also see him blowing out Frazier, where in this match Frazier would the one at a (severe) stylistic disadvantage.

 

Prime listón? Lol yeah. I forgot that prime liston was actually from the era of jack johnson he was born in the 1880s

 

Er...well the subject is Liston, and Ali did beat him twice, it's not conjecture.

 

I could see Liston doing this only if Frazier and Foreman went into their shell, allowing Liston to stay on top the whole time. Sonny was good at that. If he got an early upperhand there was no discouraging him. He had a heavy punch for each opening, good work rate and excelent control of range when on top.

But I dont see this happening.

Great fighters always fight back, even under the cosh, and its the fighting back bit that is so crucial. What happens then? We know even losing, Foreman and Frazier can take it and dish it out at top ATG level.

Not so with Liston at ATG level (Williams absolutely not being ATG level) and it's a total leap of faith to say so. Liston fought two great fighters and went 2-2. The one he beat never got going and the second one made Sonny quit.

We never got to see Liston fight enough great fighters his own size. Frazier and Foreman match him a lot more for power and durability than a psyched out Floyd Patterson.

 

Foreman -

Best jab: Sonny Liston and Ali. Sparring with Liston is the most dangerous thing that I ever did in my entire life. As I said earlier, no matter what I tried against him, it was me who had to revert back to boxing. Nobody made me box like Sonny Liston did and that happened every time we worked together. He taught me many things, including the importance of the jab. I just couldn’t get mine straight and every day he had me working on it. There were times when he could have knocked my head off but he didn’t because we were pretty good friends. I saw the way he stared at people and I took on some of that behavior to intimidate opponents. That was where some of that “Bad George” came from, hanging around with Sonny. That was gym work but in the professional ring it was Muhammad Ali because he would just spin that jab into my face. Boy he had an educated left hand. Norton had a good jab but he made the mistake of trading power punches because he’d heard my defense would let me down. If he’d boxed like he did with Muhammad I wouldn’t have gotten him so easily. Kenny had the wrong tactics that night.

 

Great reading here

edit - other sites get censored.

 

Their's also this.

By Jim Carney, Author and Boxing Expert:
An ironic matchup. These two were once stablemates and became friends of sorts. Foreman was one of the few people Liston trusted to read to him. Sonny was somewhat of a hero to the younger man, who would sometimes carry his gear for him. Foreman noted that although he was taller and, in his opinion, stronger, Sonny was the one man he could never back up. Liston was somewhat past his prime when they sparred but still was formidable. George was somewhat short of his prime but already formidable – so perhaps things were evened out.

If the two met in a real bout in their respective primes, it would be an awesome clash. In my opinion, George has a slight edge in overall punch and strength and maybe a small one in durability. There’s probably not much to choose from in hand or foot speed. George is slightly taller and heavier but Sonny has a longer reach. Basic skill is about even with Sonny perhaps being a better ring thinker. Both are killers and finishers. Neither cuts easily.

The two land bombs from the beginning. Liston is floored twice and George once. Going into the eighth, Liston is tired but Foreman is exhausted. George goes down for a second time in the eighth and is knocked out in the ninth. George’s lack of stamina ultimately cost him this fight – as it did in his battles with Ali and Jimmy Young.

By Moontan, Heavyweightaction.com Boxing Expert:
This would be a classic confrontation with two of the most awesome fighters to ever enter the ring in their prime. They both dominated the heavyweight division until Ali defeated both of them in great matchups. Once again I will repeat the fact the both of Foreman’s losses while in his prime were under very humid and hot conditions which led to two master boxers being able to avoid Foreman rushes to survive and win the fights. Liston’s losses to Ali were unusual as well as Liston sat on his stole in the first fight against Ali claiming an injury and taking a dive in the second fight. Neither fighter would be intimated by the other one in this fight and neither would back up a great deal. Liston however could change plans and box at a higher level than Foreman and because of this I would give him the edge in the fight. His ability to pace himself and box from a distance would be a big advantage as well as his fabulous left jab. Liston also had better head movement than Foreman moving back and forth. Big George’s favorite tactic of extending his arms to push an opponent off balance would not be affective against Liston because of Liston superior reach. The fighter’s size and build were very similar. I see the fight with a lot of fireworks and blows but both men took such a great wallop I can’t imagine the fight going the distance. I would give Liston a hard fought decision.

 

what's this based on? What great fighter who punched hard and was nearly as good as Foreman did Liston beat. Don't say big cat Williams. Rated fighters.

something would give really quickly if Liston fought the same Frazier as Foreman, I agree. But I think if Liston fought the same Frazier that Ali fought in 1971 it would be an entirely different experience for Sonny. Remember if Frazier could time a hook to beat Ali's faster jab to the draw you can bet your hat that Joe could land his hook before Sonny reaches him with a slower jab too.

But that Frazier was severely handicapped in that he could no longer land on the way in by the time he fought Foreman. His eyes were bad. He could not judge distance so well as he could versus Ali in 71'

isn't that kind of crucial?

yes lots of conjecture for sure. Beating a hard punching guy who did not bother or knock down world class fighters is one thing. Beating a hard puncher who did knock down and KO world class fighters is another thing. Beating world class fighter out of sight before he can even land a punch does leave the door open somewhat, but dont we need proof in a two way street?

Liston did not have many wars. Sonny won fights against men who troubled him slightly. Williams troubled him for a moment. A lightheavyweight troubled him in a series of fights. Machen was a tad awkward for him. Summerlin gave him a close fight. These were not wars. The Martin fight was a war. He lost that one.

we all like what we see if we see a guy looking superior. But it is who he looks superior over that counts.

But the prime Joe Frazier was a great fighter. Even Foreman h as acknowledged this himself. Nobody can really knock Frazier until he . Already beat the greatest heavyweight of all time. The guy Foreman fought was the left overs of a fighter who could not land on the way in anymore. All George h ad to do establish Joe to where he could not reach him. Where as before Frazier could beat Ali to the punch at long range!!

 

Good bust, but their are points that reflect pure bias.

 

I dont think it is biased to say Ali fought a better Joe Frazier than Foreman did.

Is it really that biased to say of the two great fighters Liston went 2-2 against that one made him quit and the one he beat never got going?

Is it biased to say Liston did not have many wars?

I think it would be more biased to invest faith in things Sonny never got around to proving against ATG fighters his own size.

Sonny did prove a lot of things. I am not biased toward him. For instance I would not deny Liston was a great technical box puncher. He had two handed power. He was so good, like Tyson and Joe Louis he psyched out some really good fighters. He was instinctive, could smell fear and exploit it. There's a lot good to say about him. Sonny was the best heavyweight in the world when he was champion. There's no denying that.

 

I'm not sure he even beat the shell of Liston.
The fights had a smell to them, especially the second fight.