Would Ali beat a prime Liston?

The part I highlighted was the biased part.

 

Hard to say.

The first fight was an even contest with the momentum swinging the way of the challenger, did Liston really throw his shoulder out? Or did he do a Duran and quit out of confusion? I don't see it being a dive first time round.

The second fight, first off the phantom punch was real, HD replays prove that a solid punch landed. However the way Liston went down, the way Walcott tanked the count, the way the time keeper messed up, the way Liston was shunned by the boxing world in the aftermath, there are too many variable to just accept this as a legitimate 1st round ko victory. I know it's HW boxing and one punch can change a fight but it seems more likely to me that a series of **** ups resulted in the victory rather than a well timed counter right.

So let's dismiss the rematch. The first fight was very competitive and Ali made Liston miss by inches, a year earlier though, if Liston is the one throwing the hook that Ali shipped against Cooper, we could well have seen Liston making an easy title defence without breaking a sweat. But that wouldn't be prime for prime. Prime for prime I just can't see Liston having the success needed to defeat a peak Ali.

 

Lmao

 

Please name Listons wars at world level.

 

He'd also wipe the floor with Jack Dempsey.

 

Sonny Liston vs Cleveland Williams

Sonny Liston vs Mike DeJohn

Sonny Liston vs Nino Valdez

 

Liston really had a bad shoulder.
He went into the fight with a bad shoulder.
He took Clay lightly and thought he would KO him in the 2nd round and the shoulder wouldn't matter.
I think it was a valid win for Clay, but not one to gloat about.

The second fight was a pure dive that went sour and still resulted in a loss for Liston.

I wouldn't give Ali much credit for those two fights and I wouldn't judge Liston's ability on them.
I might judge Liston's character on the second one.

 

Who takes a dive before getting up and continuing to fight?

 

Liston had laid there, without a count, until he had began to feel silly. The crowd was booing and yelling "Fix". It was obvious he had taken a dive.
I think he decided to get up and go down again, later in the fight.

You can mark it up to Ali's stupidity in not going to a neutral corner.
Ali was a border-line re****. This is a good example of it.

 

http://imgur.com/PgPmj

 

I would pick Muhammad Ali at his peak over Sonny Liston even if the latter was in his prime. Ali was far too skillful, clever, quick and athletic in addition to having tremendous heart and the ability to take a punch.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Milwaukee Sentinel, August 6, 1959:
Sonny Liston, his right eye clamped tight after the first round, exploded with a furious punching onslaught to flatten the veteran Cuban Nino Valdes in 47 seconds of the third round of their scheduled 10-rounder here Wednesday night. A tremendous left hook, followed by a whistling right, dumped the trial horse against the ropes shortly after the third opened. Valdes sat there, one arm d****d over the ropes until seven, then rolled to his knees where he took the full ten count. He finally staggered to his feet at 12—too late, of course. It was the third ranking heavyweight's 18th straight victory—he's lost only one in 26—and further embellished his already bright reputation among the big guys. Liston, who claimed Valdes had thumbed him in the late moments of the opening round, was still a tamed tiger in the second round, although he was getting to Valdes with his jarring left jab. But it was a different tale once the third got under way. The 25-year-old Philadelphian marched right out and started banging away. He did get hit with a stunning left hook but bounced right back with a two-fisted attack that backed his huge opponent into the ropes. Then came his dynamiting left-right combination that brought Sonny Boy his knockout. It was an impressive finish by an impressive heavyweight. The usual cry from the winner's camp was heard—a challenge to Ingemar Johansson—but he can forget about it for the time being, although other so-called challengers like Eddie Machen and Zora Folley better beware of this latest threat on the heavyweight horizon.[/I]

No mention of a war. Notice the mention of Valdes as a trial horse. Nino had been losing a lot. He was coming off a terrible pounding from the footballer Charlie Powell who decked him twice and a loss to Alonzo Johnson. By the time Sonny fought him, Nino had lost ten times since he had been a leading contender to Marciano.

[/I]United Press International, February 19, 1959:
Heavyweight contender Sonny Liston, with 16 straight victories under his belt, apologized today for uppercutting Big Mike DeJohn while he was "down," and yelled for a fight with a higher ranking contender. "I want Eddie Machen, Zora Folley or Nino Valdes for my next fight," declared Liston of Philadelphia, who floored DeJohn of Syracuse, N.Y., twice Wednesday night with solar-plexus punches for a technical knockout in the sixth round of their TV fight. After referee Jimmy Peerless had stopped the bout at 2:43 of the sixth round before 3,858 at the Miami Beach Exhibition Hall, the fight was almost resumed in DeJohn's corner. When the victorious Philadelphian danced across the ring to shake hands with vanquished Mike, DeJohn refused to shake and angrily accused Sonny of uppercutting him when down on one knee the second time. Mike called Sonny a name. Liston swung at him and missed. Then their handlers separated them. Liston, weighing 209¼ pounds and standing 6-feet-1, admitted later, "Yes, I uppercutted him all right, but I didn't know he had a knee on the floor. I thought he was just squattin' like he did a couple of times earlier. I'm sorry about it but he's so tall, I didn't realize he had a knee down." Sonny was favourite at 12-5.

No mention of the Dejohn fight being a war either.:huh Dejohn was coming off two losses and a win over Willie Besmanoff. Whilst a name as such, I struggle to see how Mike was rated with this form.

Associated Press, April 16, 1959:
Two tall, hard-hitting heavyweights who had trouble finding opponents met each other in the ring here Wednesday night and Charles (Sonny) Liston of Philadelphia came off the winner by a TKO in 2:04 of the third round. Liston floored his opponent, Cleveland Williams of Houston, Texas, twice before referee Jimmy Peerless stopped it. The fight had been billed for 10 rounds, but odds were 3 to 1 it wouldn't go that far. Liston started slowly and Williams, who had lost only two out of 46 ring appearances, mixed in left jabs with right crosses and left hooks to pile up a lead and bloody the Philadelphian's nose. "We weren't concerned about the blood on Liston's nose." said his manager, Pep Barone. "It would take more than that to beat this fighter." Liston's handlers said they told him to wait Williams out and he did, but only until the second round. Sonny opened up then and peppered his foe with rights and lefts to the head. A barrage to Williams' head late in the round rocked the Texan and paved the way for the fatal third. In that round, Liston poured on more rights and lefts to the head and Williams went down. He took the eight count but when he came up, Liston was waiting with more of the same. Williams went down flat on his back, rolled over and staggered to his feet as Peerless stepped in [/B]to stop it[/B]

As exciting as I find this film it is interesting in this report that there is No mention of this fight being an actual war, or if Williams had a rating at this point.

 

But wouldn't that support his point?

Newspaper doesnt describe Williams bout as a war, but it was. Isn't the same possible for the other two articles?

 

Exactly. A 74 ali beats peak liston