Would Ali beat a prime Liston?

You can only beat the best of your time. Just because Liston didn't have the opportunity to pump the likes of Foreman and Frazier doesn't mean he wouldn't. Crazy stuff.

What two handed ATG power puncher did we see Joe Frazier beat? Oh hang on, he got utterly obliterated by the only one he faced.

Take out the Ali (who was past prime) fights and Joe's record thins out considerably. Going down the stretch and punching back and forth with Ali isn't in the same stratosphere as punching on with Liston. Different ballgame. We saw Joe punch on with a massive hitter with some greatness and it was all ugly.

Different ballgame.

Are you saying Foreman would not have blown out the Frazier that fought Ali? Are you saying suddenly Frazier was past it, despite only having two fights against ordinary opposition?

Timing Ali's jab is entirely different. Timing the jab or not, Liston backs it up with big ko power in both hands. Frazier swallowed Ali's power well, the same would not be said with Liston.

Ooooooooook.

There's a plethora of greats who never beat an ATG, christ. Frazier has one win over an ATG who was not what he once was and had plenty going against him. Ali had two fights in 4 years before taking on Frazier. Not exactly great preparation.

Same angle.

The Martin fight? Really?

Joe had trouble with Jumbo Cummings too.
Oh and Ali had trouble against Berbick too.
Tyson with McBride too.

Maybe we should exhume Joe Louis and put him in with one of the super sized heavyweights so we can find out if he could have competed with them.

What are Joe's top 5 wins taking out the 1 Ali fight, of which was avenged twice.

I'm not convinced with some of this.

Absolutely Joe was a great fighter. I could see him competing hard day in day out against great boxers like Ali and Holmes. Be a great fight with Holyfield too.

When in with the truly big bangers with greatness to boot i see him having a much harder time of it. Guys like Liston, Foreman, Lewis etc.

We saw what happened the only time Joe took on an ATG banger. No-one can tell me there's not a good chance it would happen all over again with Liston.

 

His point was that Valdes, Dejohn and Williams represented wars with elite fighters. They were competative wins rather than wars. And these competative wins were against two trial horses and a relaunched prospect rather than elite fighters.

So I feel it supports my point that these were not elite fighters and these were not actual wars.

 

he made a coherent argument based on facts. If liston never did beat anyone like foreman you cant say that he would . simple like that. All you are doing is making a predicition based on nothing

 

Only because he came down on your hero's side of things. If i came down on Foremans side you'd be bobbing up and down like a piston.

Oh and in which factual fantasy did you pull out

 

Joe frazier was bigger,heavier ,stronger,better and did hit wayy harder than schmeling

 

You said twice as hard. No doubt this is based on facts.

The Ring Magazine in their 100 greatest punchers of all time rated Schmeling 55. Frazier came in at 39, not much ahead really but Frazier "hit x2 harder than schmeling"



Incidently Sonny Liston came in at 15.

 

So 16 places on him is not much harder
? Anyway the word of the ring magazine is a fact or just an opinion? X2 was clearly a way to say much harder just a dumb **** like you would use it as argument

 

Name calling already? Didn't you just chastise a poster for mentioning someones mother?

Jeez, where are posters like MDWC now. He'd have a field day

 

Ali proved that he was versatile and fast enough to beat anyone. Lewis avoided byrd for evident motives and not only because he was southpaw. Vitali is very robótic and byrd did beat him.

 

And when did i mention the mother of anyone? Uh?

 

You serious? It was less than 3 hours ago in the Rudduck thread. I'm assuming you know what chastise means but am probably wrong LOL

 

They're obviously not gonna say the word "war" . These descriptions perfectly described a war.

 

no It does not mean he wouldn't, it just makes it harder to give him that credit, the credit of knocking out ATG fighters his own size without showing bias. It's like going out on a whim. It's not impossible but it's a longer shot.

Jerry quarry was a big puncher. Don't forget. Watch what he did against bodel and Ernie Shavers. Bonavena hit hard. Watch what he did to Manuel Ramos.

no, Frazier cleaned out the entire back half if the 1960s including Ali. He cleaned house. If they were relevent Frazier beat them. Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Ali...

but if the back and forth starts with a knockout puncher landing first then after the first three blows he's landed 2-1. Surely he has a punchers chance. Frazier had a good KO ratio.

He fought some hard punchers before that. Ramos was a puncher. Bonavena was a puncher. Quarry was a puncher. And Joe at his best was quite hard to hit too. Chuvalo says Frazier had the best defence of any fighter he fought because his head movement and rolling had him slipping chuvalos hooks all over the place.

I think it would be a different fight yes. Maybe Foreman might not have challenged for the title so early if Frazier was still as good as he was versus Ali.

some say Liston was suddenly past it after his best two recorded wins over Floyd.

why is it different? If a faster jab can be timed and countered with a hard punch so can a slower one. More often if anything.

Liston has a punchers chance with anyone, but so too does Frazier. If Frazier can land first it could be all over. Whatever you think of that fight, Ali still caught Sonny in the first round with a knock down.

George hit harder than Ali, but sometimes it's not who hits hardest it's who hits who first. Did Foreman beat Ali because he hit harder? Getting hit first takes the sting out of a guy.

Ali was still regarded as the premier heavyweight. His two comeback fights showed he still meant business. Incidentally, if Ali did not look quite so good against them the fact that Quarry and Bonnevena were better than any of the guys Ali fought in the 1960s proberbly had something to do with it. I mean, which of Ali's 1960s challengers beat quarry and Bonnevena?

This one is a whopper. Those two fights were the very best possible contenders out there, Ali actively sought them to overshadow and upstage Frazier who had only fought a two rounder with lightheavyweight Bob Foster in the last eleven months. Ali fought 18 rounds with elite heavyweights in the same time and on paper did a better job than Frazier had with Quarry and Bonnevena. Ali was the outstanding contender. He proved it.

yes it was at the end of his career but Martin was a war in the true sense. Give and take both ways. Lennox Lewis had a war with Klitchko in his very last fight proving old fighters can come through them.

I would not go that far. Joe Louis proved he could beat monstrously big heavyweights anyway.

Quarry x2, Ellis x2, Bonavena x2, chuvalo, mathis, Bugner, Jones,

Agreed. Joe was more of a puncher than those two as well.

But Frazier had work rate and heart, he hit as hard as most. Certainly hard enough. You can't rule him out just bed a use Foreman did it to him when he was half the guy he once was.

Well Jerry quarry was a good banger. Bonavena scored some good knockouts. Chuvalo was physically very strong and he knocked out a lot of guys.

 

Oscar bonavena did hit definitely harder than quarry. Charley goldman trained marciano and bonavena and said that oscar had more raw hitting power shot for shot