Would Ali go Undefeated Vs Lennox Lewis Competition

Only in terms of significance.
Liston's best wins were in the late 50s.

That might well be true, but it has no bearing whatsoever on how a 63 Ali would do against Ruddock.

I beg to differ.

 

You were trying to play down Ali's win over Liston. This is a weak position to take when we know that Liston had recently won and defended the Championship against Patterson. The Patterson wins were two of Liston's best.

Yes, it does have a bearing. It is not the only factor but, in this case, the difference in levels is significant.

When your best win is either a burnt out Smith, Dokes or Page you're not in the same league as the guy who beat Liston for the Championship. It really is that simple.

Your argument has been based almost entirely on relegating Ali to being "green" and "prone to mistakes".

Now you are more than merely implying that Ruddock has the style to beat Ali.

Please elaborate. What is it about Ruddock's style that makes him a "favorite" (your word) against Ali?

 

He landed that same punch on Holyfield. I think Ali could take it too.

 

Giving Ruddock a fair shot/puncher's chance due to his size, athleticism, and his wild and extremely powerful hook (a punch Ali would sometimes fall prey to) is somewhat reasonable.

Favoring Ruddock over almost any version of Ali (especially the prime version), a blindingly fast, skilled ATG leagues ahead of Ruddock with a titanium grade chin whose never been KOd, is unjustifiable nonsense. That's a take you'd expect from a casual in a YouTube comments section, Ruddock's cousin, or a drunk in a bar.

The only thing more hilarious than favoring Ruddock over Ali is claiming Ali made "lots of mistakes" when Ruddock made a GROCERY LIST of mistakes.

 

Ali's win over Liston should be downplayed, it's not a weak position at all.
Yes, Liston's wins over Patterson were some of Liston's best, but you must look at the circumstances:
- Patterson was a small HW;
- despite being slightly past his best, Liston actually trained cause he wanted that belt.
On the other hand, when he faced Ali, Liston barely prepared and understimated Ali badly. Plus he even injured his shoulder.

No, it's not. Like I said, Liston was nowhere near 100%, and styles make fights. Ali is always gonna have the edge against a slow and old slugger, but not against someone who pressures him.

A few things.
First of all, Ruddock is the same height as Ali while being slightly heavier, so Ali doesn't enjoy his usual size advantage.
Second of all, Ruddock's best punch is his smash, a punch Ali has never seen before, and that he threw with his left hand, and we all know Ali was vulnerable to left hands.
Third, although flawed as a boxer, Ruddock was not afraid to take the fight to his opponent, and he's pressure Ali who didn't like that.
Fourth, Ali was making mistakes and he will get found out eventually, especially given that he did not possess such a great chin back then.

 

The fight is considered one of the greatest upsets in Heavyweight History.

At least the people at the time had a solid reason for making him a 7-1 underdog.

You, even with the benefit of hindsight, still seem uninformed.

Here's just one small snippet which sums up nicely the dawning of something special occurring in the heavyweight division, courtesy of...

SPORTS ILLUSTRATED

Tex Maule - March 09, 1964

Yes, It Was Good And Honest
In a superior fight young Cassius Clay proved that his fists can speak as loudly as his tongue. He outmaneuvered and outfought Sonny Liston to win the heavyweight championship, just as he said he would

(excerpt)
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Yes it is. Ruddock beat no one of note and was essentially outclassed when stepping anywhere near the top tier - because he wasn't of that tier.

You're leaning heavily on Liston's condition and not looking at what Ali was demonstrating in capabilities.

Have you ever watched any footage of Ali versus Liston I? Or, have you looked into the events of the fight at all?

How does this effect the action and the outcome?

The "Smash"!!! LMAO

Ali would be calling it the "Telegraph" after about 30 seconds.

Yeah - Liston didn't look afraid to me either, unless trying to walk through your opponent was a sign of fear back in those days.

So when exactly did Ali's chin get great? What had happened to make it great by whatever point that was?

 

By 1963, Ali had also never beaten anyone of note.

I'm leaning cause Liston's condition makes all the difference in the world.
IMO Ali demonstrated what he did cause Liston's condition allowed him to.

Of course I did.

I highly doubt that. Ruddock definitely nails a 63 Ali.

In the 70s, in his 30s.

He matured, added some more mass and his bones where stronger.

 

You're not really adding anything new here; nothing measurable or beyond sweeping statement at least - and you're clearly not interested in what observers had to say about Ali's victory over Liston, at the time.

Ali had beaten 4 Ring-Rated opponents by the time he met Liston. And Liston was his next fight after beating Cooper. Ruddock has, in his entire ledger, Dokes.


I think we've reached the end of the conversation. I really do not have anything else to say on the topic.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.