Would Ali have been better if he had been less of a head hunter?

No

 

Being a body puncher is one of the best things you can be in boxing - IMO it’s a yes no doubt, just as a long as he gets a good teacher… which he didn’t really have…Ali developed himself after the Olympics Angelo was just “A guy” and I highly doubt he’d be taking the time or more importantly have the knowledge to teach Ali to be a terror on the inside or to work the body properly, even if he did I doubt Ali would listen, he thought he knew everything and that’s why Angie was hired, he wasn’t there to teach Ali to fight. Dundee wrongfully has been called one of the “great” trainers, which he seems to lap up yet you’ll never know the name of the guy who built Napoles.

I met Muhammad Ali was back in 1991 and he told me, "I love Angelo and I think he's great, but he didn't teach me how to fight." - John David Jackson

 

Ali might have gotten away with his punching form for headshots and body jabs, but not with the other body punches. He would have to plant his feet, throw with commitment and fight in a range where he didn't want too.

You'd have to change his entire style of fighting to make it work.

 

No you can't throw body punches when you're dancing around the ring on the tips of your toes unless Ali was throwing jabs to the body but that would leave him even more vulnerable to getting countered.

Ali would have to plant his feet and be more stationary to throw effective body punches and that wasn't his style.

 

This. Ali already had a style that worked. Why fix something that wasn't broken.

 

It’s not so much getting Ali to throw body shots “on his toes” as it was giving him new ranges to work in, he couldn’t fight inside and his arsenal was really limited in disposing of opponents inside or at mid range… he could lay on the ropes and roll-shoot, but in the centre ring and anywhere between there and the ropes he clinched. If you have Ali throwing properly to the body and able to fight inside it’ll only open up more options… Also I don’t remember Ali being overly mobile against his best opposition.

 

There are a hundred things that might in theory have made Ali better, but forcing them on him probably wouldn't have.

There is a saying in distance running "if what you are doing is working, just keep doing it."

 

Excellent body puncher when he chose to be, but didn't do it often.

The only match he would've won a decision on with no knockdowns and body punches alone was with Blue Lewis, and Al did catch him with some head shots in that one as Ali ravaged him underneath and inside. His hooks to the body were consistent and hard on Karl Mildenberger, in line with the orthodoxy that the way to get a southpaw is with left hooks downstairs. (In one excellent angle, Muhammad lurches upward with a hard hook downstairs as Kart is against the ropes which makes the German audibly grunt. Other hooks videotaped from a more distant angle don't look hard, and their impact can't be heard, but that instant I just referred to unveils the truth.

However, for the spirited 6'4" Dunn, the second southpaw ever to challenge for the HW Championship, Muhammad dispensed with body shots and went directly to his darting right lead in keeping with his fifth round knockout prediction written on the inside of his gloves prior to that match. (He probably could've wiped out Richard about as quickly as Bugner did in Dunn's next match. Ali had a serious power advantage in this one, and coming before Inoki destroyed his legs and nearly cause one to be amputated, this was the final time Muhammad was able to plant his extremely powerful legs for driving shots. Nobody would've questioned this trimmed 220 pound version of Ali's win over Norton at Yankee Stadium. I don't think Manila took anything away from Muhammad's potential when in peak condition. It was exile, then Inoki in Tokyo, then Shavers wrecked him neurologically.

Ali opened the fourth round of his title rematch with Bugner by unloading an excellent body punch combination which Don Dunphy described as "Solid thumps!" He also used body shots on London and Big Cat, but as with Bugner, these were low risk against tall postured opponents who weren't positioned to hit back as Blue Lewis did.

Certainly he proved he could do it in Dublin with Lewis, quickly reddening his sides and making Al breath hard. Blue was significant weakened by those body shots when that fifth round ending right decked him for 16 seconds. (Boxing Illustrated editor Lew Eskin, also a referee, was officiating, and his count had a leisurely cadence allowing Al to get up at nine just as the bell rang. Some referees count an exact ten seconds and follow the ringside counter as Zack Clayton did in Kinshasa to Foreman, others disregard the ringside counter and apply their own discern. In the case of what happened in Lewiston, JJW should've disregarded Nat Fleischer completely and let Ali-Liston II proceed, as Ali's antics prevented him from ever beginning a count. And yes, I believe Sonny got up as quickly as he could. I imagine he heard Muhammad's feet close by and heard his shouting, but I don't think Liston saw him according to what the footage shows. BTW, I think Dublin promoter Bob Arum was fine commenting on Ali-Lewis.)


Body punching was never essential for somebody of Muhammad's height, reach, hand and foot speed. Former CWs Holyfield and Haye proved that Valuev wasn't too tall for Ali to easily decision. There's never been a HW he'd have needed body punching and infighting underneath to defeat. Blue Lewis merely demonstrated that Muhammad's amateur background as the occasionally shorter guy while growing up had kept his under and over infighting and body punching experience as part of his tool box. (Larry Holmes was always a HW, always boxed tall, so while his body shots from outside could win for him against the likes of Tiger Williams, Carl Williams, and destroy Paul Poirier with one rib cartilage separating right, you never really see the Assassin go underneath and inside. He wasn't ducking Norton's overhand right as Ali did in his first rematch with Ken, a key tactic for Muhammad.)

Blue Lewis showed that there was some justification for Ali not wanting to expose his head to punches by going downstairs. Except for that fight, he only went to the body when his opponent wasn't able to counter with head shots. (Yes, Big Cat had been shot, but the film shows his own hand speed was intact. Unlike Muhammad thought, Cleve did not have full extension, and was too upright and stationary a target. Take away that shooting, and I don't think he's any more competitive in the Astrodome. Nobody ever was beating Ali that night.)


I'd have to look at Bob Foster again, but I don't recall the GOAT attempting any body shots on the spindly LHW Champion in that one. (In fact, Ali seemed conscious of not bullying Bob with clinches or shoving. I'd hate to have seen how Foreman would've treated the Deputy Sheriff. What Big George did to 6'7" 183 pound Bob Hazleton was ugly enough.)

 

Dundee has been credited with shortening Ali's hook, much as Charley Goldman developed Marciano's hook in time to surprise Louis and as Eddie Futch taught Holmes to stop lifting his left leg before throwing his right. But Ali had been fighting since age 12 for Bob Martin's televised, "Tomorrow's Champions" while he clandestinely getting training from Fred Stoner on the side. (When Stoner died, he was widely credited for giving Ali foundational skills and conditioning knowledge.)

 

Ali created a lot of cuts by twisting his jab. I've no idea it that technique was taught or natural. Can't imagine Ali throwing Mexican style left hooks to the body.

 

I always encourage folks to watch Ali-Lewis, an extremely interesting and overlooked match in the Ali canon. The story goes that Blue hurt Muhammad's ribs in sparring, and he only let his friend Ellis get away with that prior to Lewiston. (Ali hurt Jimmy with a fourth round right, and once Ellis was stunned, he remained stunned with no powers of recuperation.)

 

Temperament is important - Ali, Foreman and Frazier were all stubborn, arrogant young men who were winning if you’d tried to change them too much they’d have resisted it, each man was with great teachers (at times) and could’ve been better IMO - Ali had Moore at one point, Frazier had Futch and Foreman had Saddler & Moore.

 

Chuck Bodak was also with Ali for his last 3 years as an amateur.

 

I can’t imagine many people fighting like Joe Louis today but it was all taught! - Mike Tyson, Torres and Patterson could all rip hard combos on opponents that looked very similar because it was taught.