Would Bruno Lose To Toney??

He let me down far too many times for me to have any confidence in that.

 

But you have conceded that they would form the kind of opposition that [Bruno] traditionally feasted upon.

Save for his novice loss against Smith (And even Smith beats Maskaev and Ruiz, IMO), Bruno's defeats came against two Top-10 ATGs (Tyson and Lewis) and a guy who is likely ranked within the All-Time Top-40 Heavyweights (Witherspoon).

But you have confidence in Maskaev, despite him losing to McCall, Tua, Johnson, Whitaker, Sanders (Corey, not Corrie), Peter and Aguilera? (But his best wins are against Rahman).

I am failing to see the logic behind your statements.

 

My point is that Bruno feasted on men who were not really contenders, lost when he fought a live body, then went back to feasting on men who were not contenders again.

This pattern rinsed and repeated until he fought McCall, where he managed to break teh pattern.

If all that you could see was Bruno's record and Ruiz's record, you woudl conclude that he was not in Ruiz's class.

Is it far fetched to think that Ruiz might spoil his way into the latter rounds, and take Bruno out in the later rounds, as others had before?

I don't personally think that it is.

Can we even make him a prohibitive favorite over Maskaev based on his record?

Again I don't think that we can.

But all this is besides the point.

Even if we assume that he woudl have beaten these men, Rahman has far more good wins, and his best wins are better.

 

i prefer chances of the 190lb jirov version over the 200+ version.

 

These live bodies were against Mike Tyson x2, Lennox Lewis, two ATGs. And Witherspoon who is considered a top 5 Heavyweight of the 80s.

How do you think Maskaev and Ruiz do against that opposition ? Maskaev was KO'ed in 1 by McCall, and stopped by the likes of Lance Whitaker, Corey Sanders, for crying out loud.

Ruiz got beat up by two Middleweights and is one of the most mediocre unremarkable title holders in recent Heavyweight history.

Yeah Bruno did lose to the best but guys like Witherspoon, Lewis, Tyson, are level above the likes of Ruiz, Maskaev.

 

This is end of arguement game,set and match to Bruno

 

OK there is quite a bit to unpack there.

As you say there is no shame in losing to Lewis or Tyson, albeit a lot more would be expected of him in the second Tyson fight, if he was what some here are saying that he was.

I think highly of Witherspoon as a contender, but he was not consistent, and the overweigh pot smoking version that Bruno fought was ready to be taken.

Smith also was beatable when Bruno fought him.

So how much of a problem is it losing to fighters like Smith and Witherspoon?

The answer is that it isn't, if you win some and lose some against that caliber of fighter.

However if you are consistently losing against them then we have a problem.

Ruiz get's a lot of criticism, and some of it comes from my fair lips, but the reality is that he beat a fair few good fighters.

I am not sure that men like Smith and Witherspoon were levels above him on the day that Bruno fought them.

Of course if you disagree with me, then you still have to ask why Bruno didn't go after men like Ruiz and Maskaev, while he was between title fights and title eliminators.

When a fighter is that protected, there is generally a reason.

 

Bruno was already on his last knockings at this point he had a bad eye, that was injured again vs Tyson with detached retina.

Bruno was also visibly scared and not confident vs Tyson the 2nd time, not that i think it made a difference in the outcome obviously.

But still this is Tyson not Lance Whitaker, Corey Sanders, the likes of which Maskaev got stopped by.

Yes it wasn't the best version of Witherspoon but still Witherspoon is considered a top 5 Heavyweight of the 80s, and that version of Witherspoon is still better than the likes Corey Sanders, Lance Whitaker, and losing to two Middleweights.

Still good enough to go 11 rounds vs Larry Holmes in a tough fight in his next fight, Smith is beatable yes but Bruno was also green at this point and still won every round up until stoppage Smith is also a former world champion.

Yes but your only looking at one side of the argument, you haven't commented about Maskaev getting stopped in 1 round by McCall. Or losing to unremarkable opponents like Corey Sanders, Lance Whitaker. Not to mention Kirk Johnson, Oliver McCall, Lance Whitaker, all stopped Maskaev early in rounds 1, 2, 4. Which shows Maskaev can be stopped and stopped early and not always by the best opposition either.

Well if that's the case why is Masakev not getting the same treatment from you then ? he was stopped by opponents of a lesser calibre than fighters like Witherspoon, Smith, and sometimes early aswell.

Yes but would Ruiz beat Witherspoon, Lewis, Tyson x2, ? no. His reign was a farce he got a BS DQ win over Kirk Johnson in which he play acted to get the W. Was dropped twice by Golota and somehow was awarded a decision in what is highly regarded as robbery. Lost to two Middleweights during this period, and had the worst Heavyweight trilogy of all time vs a faded Holyfield.

But Bruno wasn't in his prime vs Smith he was green, so obviously if were matching prime versions of each fighter we won't be matching up the version of Bruno who fought Smith. And Witherspoon is still a level above Ruiz even that version of Witherspoon yes.

I don't really understand what your saying ? so Bruno fighting the two best Heavyweights at that time in the 80s, and the best Heavyweight in the world at that time or atleast 2nd best at time in 90s, means he's protected ? that doesn't make sense. What other champion could Bruno have fought in the 80s ? Tyson held pretty much all the belts at that time. And the other titlists kept winning and losing the belts all the time.

 

Levels (plural), I would venture.

 

Oh yeah 100 percent Lewis and Tyson especially, Witherspoon wasn't at his best. But that version of Witherspoon would still beat Ruiz, and chin Maskaev would had a shaky chin.

 

You're intent on ignoring the quality of men Bruno lost to, each of which you can only bring yourself to term as "a live body".

Well, McCall was not on the level of Witherspoon, Tyson or Lewis, but the version Bruno faced was probably on a higher band than Ruiz and Maskaev.

Why? Because he registered a win against a next to shot Holyfield?

What if, instead, I watch Ruiz fight and conclude he is not in Bruno's class, which is in fact what I've done.

Anything is possible, but I don't think he beat a prime contender in Bruno's class.

Yes, we can, for the reasons already stated.

When one is talking about boxers of this level, I am not sure how far the perception of a superior ledger is meaningful. Had Rahman consistently beat or, at least, put in top-end performances, against the better opposition he faced, then there might be something in it - but he didn't.

Beyond his one 'Cinderella Man' moment, Rahman made little to no impression. Lewis corrected his mistake - emphatically. Bruno had performed far better against Lewis, years earlier.

The same next-to-shot Holyfield that Ruiz looked crap against (even in winning), pasted Rahman soon after that.

Rahman was a solid competitor, but no great shakes and certainly not some clearly superior fighter to Bruno. As I said from the outset, Bruno would not lose to Maskaev and he never lost to a fighter of Maskaev's level. Rahman did. Twice.

Moreover - Stylewise, Bruno would be more effective against Toney than Rahman was.

 

Am I imagining things or am I seeing someone touting a 234 pound Tim Witherspoon, flush with managerial issues, and fresh off an international flight as being a legitimate fighter while also claiming that a 233 pound version of the same fighter, but standing on American soil, was mentally unfit to be considered a serious opponent due to managerial issues?

 

That has to be the silliest reasoning. I suppose my friend Bruno beats Muhammad Ali.

 

Maskaev seemed to fall apart following the loss to Johnson. He probably was not at his best vs Whittaker and Sanders so maybe those fights are not relevant when assessing him at his best.

 

You must of missed the part when I said "wasn't at his best". But I still think hes capable of beating the very average Ruiz, and Maskaev who was stopped 7 times in career and has suspect chin yes.

Bonecrusher went out and swarmed all over Witherspoon, who underestimated Bonecrusher and wasn't mentally at his best. Its not like Ruiz or Maskaev are known for swarming all over there opponents and stopping them early is it ?

If Masakev gets caught with one of Witherspoon's over hand rights hes taking a dirt nap.