Would Foreman and Liston really blast out Tyson in two rounds

You're shading the issue. You said that Tyson "maintained the same level of intensity over 10 rounds against Green" as a reponse to my assertion that Tyson's dangerous diminished considerably after mid-fight. Now you're making it about Mike being "in charge the entire fight". I never said that Tyson does must fight with optimum intensity to be "in charge" over the distance.

Okay, he systematically broke guys down. I took it to mean he was a strategist, or adaptable in the fight.

That was a great performance against a faded ex-champ. It neither proves nor disproves your point. It's irrelevant.

This is a straw man argument.

I am not "ultimately criticizing a fighter for KO'ing his opponents early." I applaud it. I am asserting that Tyson was most dangerous early, but if you could survive the early onslaught, he was tamer and became more ordinary late... and more vulnerable. Do you actually deny this? I am also asserting that Foreman could stop you early, midway, or late. His power remained even as his stamina did not. I am asserting that Foreman is likely seeing round 7 and Tyson is likely not seeing round 7... and have presented evidence and analysis that wasn't pulled out of thin air.

I see I hit a nerve with the Tyson/adversity argument. It must be a better one than I thought. Sensationalized? Adversity is not getting stunned by a good shot. Adversity is more of a condition or state of calamity or hardship. Sensationalized? No, you dumbed down a cogent point (that Tyson did not deal with hardship well, that when tested, he folded. And that Foreman was far less prone to this flaw) by pretending that I said that Tyson couldn't take a good shot, which is something I never said. I said he's durable, but not resilient.

No need to get upset.

Listen, the simple fact that Foreman could still muster a KO punch in the 10th round of a fight at the age of 45 and could overcome a hellacious beating for the previous 9 rounds to do it tell me that he was not only durable, not only resilient, but that he had a heart the size of the Catskills.

In those regards, Foreman is Foreman. Styles may change with age, speed diminishes, reflexes and timing diminish, eventually power goes, --all things physical deteriorate with time. But things like heart and will are not physical characteristics. They're deeper than that.

 

Interesting...

Those arguments that tout Foreman's well documented strength, heart, and power are dismissed with the phrase "Legend aside..."

--and yet Tyson is proclaimed as a "terrifying human hurricane."

 

1. Well be realistic, after nine rounds under your belt no fighter is as fresh as he was four rounds prior. The important thing is that he's fresh enough not to let his grasp over the fight slip. I don't think his danger diminished SIGNIFICANTLY, I think he was effective enough, if not as effective as earlier in the fight. I'm not trying to suggest Tyson was one of the better conditioned ATG heavyweights, in fact he's probably nowhere near the top of that list. However, he was still good enough to put the hurt on late, unless he was on the receiving end of punishment for the entire bout. Post-prison Tyson is another case.

2. Okay then let me ask you this - Lets say Thomas somehow survived another three rounds, do you really think Tyson would be incapable of ending it in the tenth? There is not enough evidence to suggest he dwindled THAT dramatically in his prime. Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on this point, because it's also dependant on how much punishment he dished out in the earlier rounds. Given how good his body attack was, if you made it out of the first five rounds, you'd be significantly depleted for the next five.

3. I agree he became "tamer" and "more ordinary" but not to the extent you suggest. If Foreman survived the early rounds, he wouldn't have done it without being battered, given Tysons handspeed and ability to bombard slower opponents from midrange.

4. Here is the flaw in your argument.
Tyson couldn't deal with adversity, FighterX is a great, therefore he will cause him adversity, therefore Tyson will lose. Is similar to,
Lewis had a poor chin and couldn't take a punch, FighterX is a great, therefore he will find his chin at some point because Rahman and McCall did, and therefore Lewis will lose.
We both know it doesn't work like that. The question is really whether Foreman will cause "adversity" as you define it. Because Tyson could take a lot of hard shots before he was troubled or backed up. If he lands on Foreman (which he will), his confidence will soar. Foreman was not as fast of hand or foot as Holyfield.

5. In his prime it was much more difficult for Foreman to "muster" that energy because as he himself claimed, he was a "wind-up doll". He punched himself out Vs Ali, and he was liable to do it again. He was better in many ways 2nd time round, but you can't assume the '73 Foreman will have the maturity, patience and strategic emphasis as the '90 Foreman, because HE JUST DIDN'T.

 

... and so we arrive at the starting point. Tyson was less dangerous round by round after about round 6 at most. I think he was closer to ordinary in the last few rounds than he was significantly dangerous. You don't.

Evidence? Tyson has one late round KO in his total 58 fight career. You began this exchange by claiming that you are leaning towards Tyson by late round KO.

...Tyson would be far more likely to KO Pinklon Thomas in round 10 than he would George Foreman.

While Foreman is frozen with fear? Again, 1973 Foreman was extremely aggressive, especially early. He was also at least as durable as Tyson and far more resilient.

That flaw you suggest is nowhere near my argument. Here is my argument, for the last time:

1. Both hit hard. Both will land.

2. Tyson's speed may see him land more at first but Foreman is both durable and resilient enough to see his way through and land his own. And he is more than strong enough to force Tyson backwards, force a clinch and ding him often and hard during these times.

3. Foreman's shots will find Tyson and Tyson was durable to be sure, but once Tyson's hurt, Foreman will continue hurting him. He will not back off. Tyson's resiliency was lacking. He could take a shot but he was never demonstrated an ability to handle adversity well. Foreman will bring him adversity.

4. Foreman will move Tyson backwards. Holfyfield's speed and mobility had absolutley nothing to do with his ability to move Tyson backwards. Foreman was stronger than Holyfield and thus will move him back with relative ease.... Tyson was ineffective when moving backwards.

 

Overall i disagree. There's just the usual blend. Nurhuggers say it's a great win and points to what would have happened between the two at anytime in Holmes career. Haters say Holmes was totally unprepared, totally shot and the win is absolutely meaningless. Balanced viewers IMO call it a decent win over a still tough tho over the hill Holmes and give it some due because of the sheer dominance.

If this is a serious post then you've got some big issues :blood

Care to point me to the accolades?

Foreman earned his shot my arse. He put himself in the picture to be one of the lucky non mandatories Holyfield chose. He didn't earn bugger all. Beating a drug shot and always overrated Cooney might move the earth for some, but it sure don't for me. Sentiment is the best of what Foreman had.

Lots of people. Is Tyson worse than a Hagler beating Bertha, a Monzon murdering, a Duran ko'ing a kid, SRR beating his wife etc etc? Many many people just stick to what happened in the ring and eons in here have Tyson as one of their faves - and good people at that.

Well i'd hope you also burn fighters that conduct themselves shadily outside the ring at least as harshly. The hundreds of them.

Again, i look forward to you giving a Monzon/Dokes et al similar dissing. I'll also point out the above is speculation.

Personally i'd be more inclined to say Tyson is what kept boxing alive during much of his time. Certainly nobody on earth for many years grabbed the attention of both the mainstream fan as well as non follower. Tyson was a household name, even housewives knew who he was - i am talking about BEFORE the violent stories too.

This is so intricate a book could be written on it. Yours is just one view of myriads.

I agree with you, and also with Tyson.

You hate the guy, simple.

It shows on you, trust me.

 

He is serious. Duobotomy actually believed that Cooney and Shavers would beat or be 50/50 Tyson.


He suffers from a serious case of "I hate the guy who beat my hero and i overrate every fighter my hero beat"

 

I'm hearin' ya. It's a shame as 90% of his posts have enough star quality to be written in damn magazines.

 

Hell no.

 

I don't need anyone to "document" Foreman's "strength, heart and power". The film is there and clear and I can see his abilities and how they compare to other greats', like Tyson. Compared to Tyson, I simply see them as slightly inferior, not as well rounded, certainly not technically, and I see a rough draw in the intangibles department. Of course, I envision peak champion Tyson and pre-Zaire champion Foreman, not an amalgam of born-again Foreman and the rudderless youth he was as champ. I appreciate your perspective, however.

And Tyson was very possibly the most, yes, terrifying heavyweight champion of all time. I happen to like my metaphor.

 

1. I think what you're not grasping with regards to my argument, is that I'm not saying Tyson will "spring to life" in the tenth round after sustaining a massive beating, I'm saying he will wear Foreman down in the early rounds, with bodywork and by surviving his tirade of punches, so much so that he will not NEED to be at his most dangerous and explosive to stop him. Again, look at Foreman in the Rumble in the Jungle - The finishing combo Ali hit him with in the final round he would've shaken off with ease in the first (you can argue he did), or do you disagree? He was worn down. Tyson would wear him down also.

2. Foreman was aggressive, yes, but what he surrendered to Tyson was handspeed(significantly), combination punching, footwork, and technical prowess. This makes it highly likely in my mind that Tyson will get the best of the early exchanges, and while I think Foremans looping powershots will connect, I think Tyson has the chin to shake them off in the early stages.

3. Holyfield moved Tyson backwards therefore Foreman will? Please! They are entirely different style of fighters, with completely different attributes. I have no doubt it will be Foreman on the backfoot for the most part, particularly early, as he struggled to come to terms with the bodywork, handspeed, and accuracy of Tyson. The notion that anyone with the strength of Holyfield will put Tyson on the backfoot is absurd, especially since the 96 model of Tyson was vastly inferior to the mid 80's. And that Holyfield was an excellent pure boxer with good mobility, and a golden headbutt to boot.

4. Discussing this at length has actually made me more confident of a late Tyson stoppage, whereas previously I thought the fight could go either way. Thanks for illuminating me stonehands:good

 

Haha, okay. But the ghost of Henry Armstrong has qualms about your metaphor.

While I believe that Tyson was the single most destructive puncher that I have ever seen (yes, over Louis, Dempsey, everyone), I found him more childish than terrifying in terms of his persona. Tyson tried to hard to emulate others -Dempsey, Liston, "Alexander the Great".

Tyson was a pretender -even lifting lines from Superman II ("how dare they challenge me with their primitive skills" -General Zod) in post-fight interviews.

Liston was the real thing.
Here's something for yah. Take a look at this guy:

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That's Dick the Bruiser (nee ~William Afflis), who was 6'1 and about 260 pounds, former lineman for the Greenbay Packers, pro wrestler, and all around tough guy from the 50s right through the 80s.

In 1962, Dick had some less than stellar things to say about the state of the HW division. Liston caught up to Dick right out front of the Thunderbird Casino in Vegas -in broad daylight- and beat him down like nothing -slapping him with one of those ham hock hands until Dick was heard saying either "I just want to go home now" or "I want my mother now" by more than a few witnesses.

 

Ludicrous.

Tyson would be among the least likely HWs ever to repeat in any way what Ali did Zaire.

Tyson winning an endurance contest against Foreman is laughable.

Now we have Tyson moving Foreman backwards. You're symptoms are steadily worsening.

You're either sophomoric or surrounded by pink elephants. Either way, you should change your name to Fizzle, because that's what your arguments did.

Well, I can't say I wasn't amused.

 

That is a great story.

If my name was "Dick Bruiser" i would probably look that mad, too.
I would've payed to see that though.



Concerning you comments about Tyson looking childish, i think it's worth taking into account that he was barely 20 back then and tried to live the clean life like Cus wanted him to.

If he started getting known from the age of 28 like Liston, in other words,for his conduct post-prison, he'd be just as much a maniac as Liston was.

Actually, before that he wasn't really a nice guy either. I think this dude can attest to that:

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Edit: I just looked up the incident on the Net. It was mentioned on some wrestling forum. Some replied to the story:
"Too bad Da Crusher wasn't there to back him up. Oh well, they didn't fare too well in handicap matches vs. Sammartino either."

 

Foreman would win, probabaly early, Liston probably late

 

Thanks for the wonderful story! A bit sad to me though cuz I thought Dick was pretty cool.

Of course, the biggest boxing mouth of all time learned colorful bravado from another great wrestling gladiator in Gorgeous "Ah'll moyda da bum" George. Certainly Ali was not a pretender.

Yet Tyson at his peak didn't rely on bravado at all; he knew his fists would do the talking. I remember him quoted in the pre-Tyson/Spinks Time cover story as saying, "I don't try to intimidate. That's nonsense. I intimidate people by hitting them." The toad-and-snake spouting geyser that was Tyson post-Douglas is a whole different animal.

Tyson's intimidating power was unique: he didn't act crazy like Ali; he didn't have a mob-link rep like Liston; he wasn't bigger than his foes like Foreman. There was just the memory of all those decent fighters before being mercilessly attacked and this cool customer with the wide neck and shoulders, no robe, glistening with sweat, striding to and fro, and looking at you in ring center with the look of superior disdain.