Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

If Marciano's win over moore is as legit as you claim, then what does that make floyd patterson's win over archie morre, cuz the 'great' floyd patterson handled moore pretty easily and Floyd started his career at 163lbs.

Even though I had paterson beating quarry too, it still doesnt change the fact that quarry gave floyd a much better fight than archie did.

 

Dropping your title belt to avoid a mandatory doesn't get you closer to unifying though

Or actually, maybe it did, because when Holmes was gifted the at that point meaningless IBF belt, it became somewhat meaningful.

 

Holmes and Tate were on a colision course for a unification bout before Weaver crashed the party. Weaver expressed interest but things never really took off. Perhaps if he could have avoided injury and stayed more active public appeal would have meant big bucks.

 

One thing I wish happend was since Cooney was ranked #1 in the WBC and the WBA (I think, it might have been WBO), I wish Cooney would have fought for that, won, and fought Holmes. Even Larry would deal with King for the 10 mill + some more because it would be a unification bout.

 

But it wasn't necisarily to avoid Page, it was to get rid of all of the people who were cheating him and making every fight to get set up hell. Also at that point Holmes ditched King and wanted nothing to do with him if he could help it, even if it meant dropping his belt and picking another one up. Larry was the linear champ, even with out a belt he would have been known as the champ.

 

Yeah i dont understand why Gerry Cooney never went after an abc belt in the 80s, he could have easily won one of them.

 

I agree, maybe not easily, but I feel he could have won at least one. Then if he went after Holmes, it would be a bigger money fight, and at that stage, the longer it drags out, the bigger disadvantage it is to Holmes because he was already aging. IMO the Cooney fight was his last peak fight.

 

How much money did larry and spinks make for thier fight?

 

Implausible scenario, but, in general terms, Frazier would be ranked a bit higher than he is. Those fond of Marciano would continue to rank the Rock above Frazier, though.

Frazier's two knockdowns at the hands of Bonavena would probably not diminish his standing, as this happened in Joe's 12th pro fight, against a considerably more experienced man he still beat.

And a 27-fight career would not necessarily diminish his standing either, as James Jeffries has been consistently ranked among the top-ten heavies on the strength of a 23-fight career.

Frazier would be picked to beat George Foreman in a fantasy matchup, as he actually was in their fight in Jamaica. People would forever remember Frazier, the Sherman tank, running over a fantastic fighter at FOTC, taking those mean shots for 15 rounds and still having the kitchen sink in store at the end.

Frazier would be considered a giant killer, who could hold his own with any heavyweight ever.

 

Well, I don't think the Bonavena knockdowns are terribly significant, but had Frazier retired after the Ali fight, at 27-0, then in such a short career it would stand out as one of the highlights and main criticisms one could level against him- look, for example, at how much flack Marciano takes for suffering knockdowns against Walcott and Moore, even though those were only single early-round knockdowns from which he was up within three seconds with no apparent ill effect and recovered to win by crushing knockout. With Frazier, having been down twice and taken to a split decision against Bonavena would be one of those chorus lines his critics would drum up every time someone argued for his standing at the top of the historical pile, although the argument that he was inexperienced(very true) would serve to fight back that siege on some fronts.

Jeffries is no longer consistently ranked among the top 10, and even for many of those who do have him there(myself included), his career having spanned only 23 fights certainly does hurt his standing. In my opinion, this would be one of the main knocks on Joe had he retired at that time; retiring well inside his 20s and with only 27 pro fights would leave many feeling that his career was incomplete and his retirement premature. I expect most people would rank him higher than they do as is and there would probably be a noticeable minority that would place him among the absolute elites, maybe top 3 or even #1 of all time, but the majority would still have him below Rocky due to his having had barely over half as many fights and retired with so many more fights out there to make.

 

....if frazier had retired that early he wouldn't have left much of a legacy...too few fights. even as it is now with frazier's full career, there are still those who rate him under marciano, which i find incomprehensible. okay, marciano has that 49-0, but head to head frazier would beat him,and i don't rate frazier as an all-time great fighter.

 

What are your reasons for thinking Frazier would beat Marciano and why don't you rate Frazier as an all-time great fighter?

 

Side note. No, I don't think Frazier ranks above Maricano if he retired after the first Ali fight. How about this question! If Frazier never fought and was embarrassed by Foreman, then would he rank higher than Marciano?

 

Agreed. A couple of points:

FOTC closed the book on Frazier's best; nothing he did later added to his standing. In all-time debates, it would be Frazier's best performances that would speak for him. Though Rocky had 49 unblemished wins, many more than a mere 27, Frazier's best wins against Ali, Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena and Foster objectively have to weigh more than Marciano's wins over Walcott, Charles, LaStarza, Cockell and Moore.

Plus, head-to-head, Frazier matches up quite evenly with Marciano, including an about-20-pound weight advantage.

Let's remember that Frazier's standing is diminished mostly by his loss to Foreman; remove that huge wart and Frazier looks pretty indomitable, especially because he beat Muhammad Ali.

Actually, I don't think there were that many fights out there left for Frazier after FOTC. He had 10 defenses of at least parts of the title under his belt and had convincingly turned back his biggest challenge.
Foreman, for instance, was still considered too green at 20 fights and would have been a huge underdog against Frazier in 1971.