Would Holyfield be a world class heavyweight without the aid of PEDs?

A lot of what needs to be said has been said...I am just going to add that it is pretty easy to extrapolate that his heart attack and other organ failure in the Moorer fight are PEDs related, especially since they never even tried to explain it. Also, I have said it before and I will say it again...at the time I kept asking myself why Holyfield's head was growing, which I did not realize was a symptom of HGH use.

I just can't overlook all this, and Holy loses several notches in my ATG ratings.

 

I dunno but obviously he thought he needed them.

 

Two points, yes most/near all modern pro-athletes in general are on PEDs.

Second is, that doesn't negate that Holyfield did not have the natural frame to fight at HW if not for the drug aided weight gain that allowed him to put on a significant amount of purely lean muscle with no added fat.

You can generally tell who has the potential to a be good HW just from their natural frame and bone structure, Holyfield did not have that.

 

I doubt it. Maybe fringe contender, maybe he could grab a single belt from mid level champions such as Seldon. He wouldn't have been the force to be reckoned with that he was while on the gear. Holyfield would've been too small and lacking in the strength and durability to handle a lot of the elite big guys of the 90's unless he was willing to become a more defensive fighter or a stick and move speedy guy. His tendency to slug or fight in the trenches would've gotten him a lot more devastating KO losses regardless of how much heart he had.

I saw some posts suggesting everything would've just cancelled out since other boxers wouldn't be allowed to roid up either. Bull. You had 6'5 behemoths like Bowe, Lewis, etc who could easily enter the ring 235+ even if they stick to a 100% natural diet and training regiment. Removing roids wouldn't remove their talent, skill, and size advantages. Holyfield still struggles with and likely looses badly to them regardless (especially if he fights aggressively on the front foot--complete suicide for a lanky guy who could barely get to 205 without serious weight lifting).

 

Depends on how greatly he relied on them. If enhancers were a major part of him being able to meet the physical parameters of taking on all those big men then my answer is, no. He wouldn’t have been a champion at heavy

 

world class HW to me means top 10-15 in the world. Relevant at world level. Yes i believe he could be that in the late 80s while coming in at lets say 195 to 205.
I dont believe these "behemoths" still come in 235+.... Bowe maybe 220-25 Lewis 230 maybe 235 at the end of his career
If you look at the weights these guys turned pro at on boxrec usually youll find a fight where they suddenly weigh 10-15lbs more than in their last fight and then they stay at the higher weight.
Look at Tony tuckers weights at boxrec. He was a huge guy who fought LHW as an amateur and turned Pro at 199. Eventually hes 220+ with no extra fat. These taller guys had help filling out their frames as well im sure..
Ive boxed amateur (i wasnt very good) and ive lifted weights for over 10 years.
You dont gain 10-15+ lbs of muscle(especially not in a year or so) without lifting weights on a serious bodybuilding regimen. And if youre doing that, no way you can still recover from the strain enough physically to have any type of serious boxing training. Youll be sore all time, have no snap in your punches because of tightness. Believe me ive tried it. You cant do both.
So if these Boxers back then werent lifting they must have been on PEDs. Because you dont just gain muscle while doing hours of cardio every day.
And if they were lifting they must have also been on PEDs. Because you cant recover from lifting as well as hours of cardio everyday.

Holyfield just took so much that he went above what his frame could have held naturally just by lifting(205 ish) so it gave him cardiovascular and stamina problems.
He abused them to an absurd level but he would still be world class without.

 

Do you think that stocky 6'5 guys need PEDS to weigh 230 without being fat...?

Lewis and Bowe may or may not have taken stuff, but it's more likely that they were simply cutting weight to stay in shape in the 220 range and then simply got older and/or filled out their natural frame and stopped being as disciplined. It's not like they were string beans who suddenly became huge and bulky.

 

There is sooo much confusion about PED usage.
And too many people have too much certainty about what pro athletes & fighters are doing based on broad assumptions & looking at the reasons guys might use-& not weighing disincentives or really knowing if it is True or Fair to assume most everyone is a dirty cheatin' liar!

Glass City Cobra is talkin' plentry of sense here.

I'll start deconstructing some points & misconceptions from he tgeneral to the...Holyfield.

1) Yes a good # of athletes & boxers have used or use PEDs.

2) No we do not have good authority if it is just many, or most-or how this applies to whether they dabbled or transformed their bodies with it & kept cycling on the stuff.

3) It was illegal from the start of the '90's, & this decade is when more boxers seem to have started taking them too.
In part due to them becoming more prevalent in other sports, & the culture of weight training expanding.

4) But in most cases, it is NOT so easy to judge so easily just by appearances or weight gain.
There are exceptions, but you gotta isolate for the "noise" of whether they started lifting heavy then.
If they also added body fat-& even what is worn & when weighed/food in the system can give a false idea of muscle gained or lost.

5) Bowe is a good example. I never saw him gain much muscle quickly, nor look very defined-even then a small % of folks have the look & bulk of many who use drugs.
When he went from 235 to about the 247 Lewis is (dis)credited with, he had gained fat!

6) Lewis was not that lean at that weight.
Also it is completely confused to say he dehydrated from @260-he & other HWs have no reason to dry out.
But both these guys are 6'5" & large boned with long arms.
Maybe they used, but no cause to believe they must have!

7) Lewis did not even have the chest of a Holyfield who some seem not to know was found to be "Evan Fields" in the investiagtion of Balco, receiving HGH (which does build muscle well) + steroids.

8) Before the '90's pro-bodybuilders were using tons of stuff-Ronnie Coleman is who is being referred to, & THAT sport we know reliably had everyone on it-not just because you would have no chance when massive muscle is required, but (except for the 1990 Mr. Olympia) nothing was ever banned!
Also Ronnie at under 6' & @ 300 lbs. VERY lean was almost as big as very few of the biggest guys ever-& larger than most all others.
The designer drugs & technology they had & used was Huge. even then.

9) Holyfield is very unlikely to have succeeded nearly as much if totally clean.
EVen if he did not tend to brawl & slug it out-& it is doubtful he would be psychologicaly able to avoid this-it would be hard.
But as he was, of course he needed the extra muscle & punch resistance-he may have been better *relative* to those his weight at 205 lbs.
But even losing volume & a bit of endurance (although PEDs likely kept that & speed from being lost much...)
He needed the absolute & grappling strength to deal with the likes of One Mike Tyson.

10) Some have Honor & Pride do not want to cheat to make it. Also some fear getting caught-even if cheating can be done effectively by most, some do not calculate that correctly-like guys who do cheat & in ways where they would obviously get caught, but are clueless.
Yes something like health concerns *tend* to have a smaller impact on decision making, but not none.
Also some feel they do not need it or would harm performance using them.'

11) Not all boxers do hours of cardio a day!
That will ennervate you. But many eschew even the long distance running of yore-or much iof it-in favor of the shorter bursts of activity like sparring requires.

12) Someone like Bowe or Lewis did not get beyond a size plausible naturally AND doing the cardio they did!
Many in the old days gained as much, sometimes more, even sometimes LEAN weight as they did: at least as a percentage of bodyweight, which is the only meaningful measurment.

Lewis with his bone structure & height going from 220's to 240's with not that much more body fat is NOT suspicious.
Now he could have used...But just lifting & different trainers could have done that.

 

I tend to think pretty much all good fighters since the 90's onwards at the very least dabbled inTestosterone, either Cypionate or Enanthate. It's the 'go to' steroid for all new users, acts as the base for pretty much every steroid stack, is not liver toxic, is freely available and it just plain works. You will get bigger and stronger without question, look better and feel better. I mean, they use Test for TRT these days, for heaven' sake. The side effects (if any, because everyone responds differently) are not as harsh as with many other steroids.

@Entaowed Check out the YouTube channel 'more plates more dates'. He put out a series of interviews Tom Platz did with top-level bodybuilders from the 90's.
They weren't using tons of steroids actually. The average guy in my gym uses around as much as they did, and in some cases a lot more. (One lunatic is on 800mg of Trenbolone a week--no wonder he ended up in hospital with liver failure.)

Also I wouldn't think that pride and honour even enters the room when you are a professional athlete and you need to win to put bread on the table. An honest athlete these days is not a successful one.
I've always deeply suspected Golota and Briggs were heavy roiders. Tyson commented in his book about all the back acne Golota had, and hectic back acne could easily be seen on Briggs. That dude put on a TON of muscle, while still looking in pretty good shape.

 

Alright I have put the video up now thank you!
But I already see contrary comments & the title asks if he lied about his steroid usage!
It is ironic...I always argue that folks *tend* to assume too readily & unfairly that guys must have lied cheated/juiced.
Like I do not see the evidence that most boxers at *any* time used.
Nor adequate reason to conclude if the Vast Majority did not.

Also I know you are unduly cynical that no professional athlete has any pride & honor-that is an extreme & unsupported position!
Just consider that the many times an already successful athlete starts juicing, he is not merely putting bread on the table-not just surviving-but is cheating & lying & maybe faking clean tests to get Rich & famous.

Ah but the irony? I think bodybuilders in the '90's DID use a ton of steroids!
Why the less cautious opinion?
Simple-they were massive then, & the level they got to would not be achievable absent tons of gear & potentiators.
Also it is so hard to compete when it is not just athletic skills which junk tends to help with...
But it both facilitates mass BEYOND what is adaptive to most sports like boxing...

And it measures directly what PEDs cause, mass & definition-not other skills or things that it may hurt like endurance with so much bulk.
But even more so that unlike most every other sport, it was fully LEGAL or not banned & tested for except for the much less popular "natural" competitions.

Briggs & Golata? When you have that size + the back acne, it does seem likely this is gear!
I know there is more indication that Briggs has stayed massive as he aged with gear too...


EDIT: Thanks for the reference-I watched a video not much over 17 minutes, since apparently Platz has hour-ong interviews with many top bodybuilders from the 1990's!

It reinforces my opinion that Platz either LIED or has minimized his & his cohorts degree of drug usage to fit their preferred agenda & flattering self-image.
Just the cliche that they were working so much harder then & now it is all about the drugs...Totally false.
An Old Timer romanticizing his past.

Also & damningly the video documents his past public statements compared to recently.
Apparently the amount he admitted using then just in one month-was near or over 3 TIMES the amount he describes now!

Even with his legendary hard work & great genetics, it is implausible to say the least that he could be so good-defined & massive-I recall 5'5" & 235 lbs., which at extremely low body fat was around the most mass through that time-& significantly more than Arnold for his height (due to the leg/lower body development).

Yeah the 50 lbs. more than his lifetime natural musculature that is cited (& it may be more, certainly is for the very biggest since then) is highly unlikely to have been achieved in such moderation.
They got noticeably bigger overall in the 1990's. This was not a time of delicacy re: PEDs/

See if you have any problem with the credibility of this analyses.
Just Platz contradictory statements over the years almost assures he at least is wrong or delusional about how much he took of what!

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Almost none of these men had a degree. And some of the ones that did...a little suspect.

 

...They don't let me post the surprised/hurt/sad Gizmo GIF anymore, McGrain...So, I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage. An unfair disadvantage.

 

But, one day, I'll be back.