Would Ingemar Johannsen have been to scared of Williams and Liston?

I developed a theory recently. No doubt, Ingo had the punchers chance to beat both these big studs, but I have to wonder. Looking at Ingos record, he did not fight one top big man. The last time he fought a big man with a heavy reputation was ed sanders, and Ingo was so scared of Sanders size and power that he circled away scared out of his mind for 3 rounds praying he wouldnt have to test sanders power.


This makes me wonder, have Ingo fought williams and liston would ingo adopt the same stradegy of backpedalling and circling away, afraid to unleash his right hand, afraid of getting hit by liston and williams? Is this why his managers never threw him in the pros vs a big man?

 

Johansson fought some big European guys.

Cant really blame his managers for not chasing a fight with Liston or Williams.
Johansson managed to get in front of the title fight queue just before Liston - I'd call that luck, or good timing - so there was no need to go after Sonny . And Johansson earned his number 1 rating by beating the number 1 contender. If Liston or Williams were rated higher than Machen in 1958 then maybe Ingo would have had to fight them.

I wouldn't read too much into the Sanders debacle at the Olympics. We can only speculate.

A young man can mature greatly, emotionally and mentally, and grow in confidence tremendously, over a span of a few years.

 

Well, he fought Machen, knocked him out in 1 (Liston went the full 12 - longest Liston ever went) and then fought Patterson. He was offered a re-match and a rubber match. All big money fights for the championship of the world. Why should he fight a dangerous contender with no belt and fewer money on the line?

 

machen and patterson were small. i think you mis-read the thread.

 

Would of absolutely loved to see either one of these. Would of answered a few of the Ingo question marks.

 

I have some clip Ingo vs larger European fighters, and he looks good. The thing is everyone was intimidated by Liston. Henry Cooper’s manager used to say if we Liston walking down the street, we go the other way. Ali despite his theatrics was also afraid of Liston.

Yes—I Think Ingo would be intimidated by Liston the same way Patterson was. I do think Cleveland Williams would make Ingo nervous too, but not on Liston’s level.

Rocky Marciano was at ringside for Ingo-Patterson 2 or 3 said something to the effect of sit down after Ingo scored a knockdown, because by standing up you’ll make him nervous.

 

I think Ingo was a fighter with a great heart and decent ability. Was he afraid of Williams and Liston? Who the hell knows. Even if he was, I can hardly blame him. Floyd Patterson was heavyweight champ of the world and a guy who beat Johanson twice, yet I think he was intimidated by Liston. Who wouldn't be?

 

against who? a way over the hill 36 year old hein ten hoff? i seen that clip. Hoff was shot. Hoff looked much better on film in 1950 vs walcott

 

Yes, that is one. The clips are on a Swedish web site I linked here a while back. Hoff was shot, but Ingo Looks good putting him away.

 

The contract Johansson signed for Patterson included a return bout clause--Johansson was contractually obligated to make his first defense against Patterson. When Patterson defeated Johansson in the rematch, Patterson was obligated to make his first defense against Johansson because of an identical return bout clause.

Whatever one thinks of the Ingo was afraid of Liston stance, there was no time Ingo was free to fight Liston prior to his second defeat by Patterson in 1961. At that point, the fight was no longer in Liston's interest. When Liston won the title from Patterson, he also was contractually obligated to fight a rematch with Patterson, although a defense against Johansson might well have been more lucrative and made more sense at this point.

 

Ingo defended himself by saying that the retreat and circle strategy had been worked out with his Olympic trainer and that the plan was to turn aggressive in the third round.

There was vociferous criticism at the time. A Swedish paper headlined "FOR SHAME, INGO" and he was disgraced. It might be wise to remember that he was only 19 and this circle and retreat strategy worked against Patterson in 1959.

My take is that he might have been intimidated by a man who was so much larger than anyone he was used to fighting, but by the late 50's he would have been in the ring with Ten Hoff and Neuhaus and other big fellows.

The "Ingo was afraid of Liston and Williams" take is just speculation without any basis. Ingo was fighting in Europe, Liston and Williams out in the midwest. Why would they be matched? It is not like they were all fighting out of Chicago and were natural rivals.

 

Pretty hard rap to defend yourself against. Like "so, when did you stop beating your wife?" in a way. It's not fair to assume that of anyone, much less a 75-76 year old former champ who is battling Alzhiemer's and can't retaliate in his own defense. It's a gray area concerning a fighter's psyche and the way he deals with an opponent once that bell rings. Look at Buster Douglas saying 'to hell with everything" and performing like an alltime great vs. Tyson, I mean, BUSTER DOUGLAS, for heaven's sake, the guy who quit against Tony Tucker and all. Ingo would have had a puncher's chance, that's all, and not much of a chin to offer against Liston. Who know's, maybe he'd get lucky with the right, or maybe he'd get Liston's attention with it just before Sonny lowered the boom on him, (more likely), but I wouldn't slander the guy and just assume that he'd cower and just fall over. He'd probably fire the "Toonder" right for what it was worth, and then go out on his shield.

 

Good analyis.....once you are a champ....you usually continue to conduct yourself as a champ. Liston would win, and probably the best of Williams too, but Ingo would probably put a few knots on their heads too, before he drove off with that good looking Swedish girl-friend Brigit after the fight was over.

 

This is an unfair representation. Johansson wasn't "scared out of his mind for three rounds praying he wouldn't have to test Sanders' power" in that match. They only went through two rounds anyway, and by Johansson's own account, he was fighting a strategy like the one he did against Patterson in his title-winning effort- hang back and be defensive for the first two rounds so your opponent gains a false sense of confidence and security, then explode on him in the third. Except he wasn't given the chance to actually execute the plan against Sanders.

Second, you're wrong when you say that Johansson's manager "never threw him in in the pros against a big man." At least 11 of Johansson's 28 pro fights were against opponents weighing over 200 pounds, which is a very high portion of his total fights for a heavyweight that era (for comparison, Patterson had 14 fights against 200+ pound opponents in a 64-fight career- a much lower percentage, even if we count only his heavyweight fights). He fought 6'5, 223-pound former ranked contender/German champ Hein Ten Hoff, who was a hard hitter with a high knockout percentage, and wiped him out in one round, as well as knocking out 217-pound fringe contender Heinz Neuhaus and 222-pound Werner Wiegand (looks to have been a solid journeyman). All of those guys were bigger than Liston or Williams, all of them were at worst solid opponents, and all of them were summarily dominated and knocked out. I think it's clear Johansson did not have some kind of mental block against fighting bigger men.

 

I was waiting for you to chime in MF, those are fair arguements. But I ponder you this, if its only a 3 round fight, why should Johannsen give away the first 2 rounds and leave himself in a big hole with just 3 minutes to go......why should he wait so long? against patterson he had 15 rounds, he could afford to sit back and wait. not so in a 3 round fight. Let me add many fight reports claim Johannsen being scared of Sanders power, sanders had quite the reputation. Those european heavyeweights you mentioned is a fair counterpoint, but it should be mentioned Neuhas and Hoff were both 35 + on there last legs, and Weigland wasnt exactley a world beater.


When Johannsen faced machen and patterson, he didnt fear there power. So all he thought about was the right moment to unleash his Hammer. The thing is vs williams and liston, he might be afraid of getting into position to let it go out of fear of there power........kind of like sanders fight.