Would it have been in Foremans interests to have been matched harder early on?

Who else was there that would've specifically prepared him for Ali and Young, are you thinking about? Anyone specifically?

 

I don't think it hurt him too badly as much of what Foreman needed was confidence in his physical ability, and going 40-0 with 37 KO's at the start of his career did a lot to build his confidence. However few of his early fights, even including the Norton and Frazier fights, did little to improve him from what he already was, a devastating puncher. Only Gregorio Peralta gave him a real test in their two fights. You can't knock out every opponent, and Foreman himself would tell you that he never had a plan B other than knocking out his opponent.

 

FOREMAN: "It’s funny because I get into a boxing ring and every time, every round I’d try to knock guys out. If a guy would escape me for twelve rounds, he deserved it in the first place. I never went out to win a decision, never, and some guys go out and figure they’re going to go twelve rounds with George and that’s their victory. But I would always pursue a knockout. That’s all I was after. If I go twelve rounds and they gave it to the other guy, I never complained because that’s not what I was trying to do, get a decision. I was trying to knock them out. So I’m comfortable with that. I didn’t get the victory, but I went home."

 

I'd hardly say that he folded like a deckchair in the Ali fight. It was a skillfully drawn out process. He kept coming against Muhammad,but was just getting outclassed and outhit.

 

Okay, gents. If he'd been in the middle of the elevator match he had later on, would he lose and come back better or would he win and it would've helped him with Ali? I recall him talking about, if there hadn't been doubts about his heart, will, stamina from the Ali match, he may not have gotten up in that match.

 

In the gym, yes, in the ring no. Foreman needed to go 12 rounds with four sparring partners, each sparring partner lasing three rounds. Fighters need to be aware of their stamina, and it if needs work, to increase it

 

A good trainer with historical perspective needs to teach his fighter that you simply cannot knock everyone out, and that you sometimes need to pace yourself, pick your punches, and focus on your defense so that you can win a decision. But I guess that is a difficult lesson to teach to a confident kid who has been KO'ing almost everyone he has faced, including two guys who have beaten the guy you are about to face. Yes, a few more durable guys who could last the distance probably would have served George well. Although he did go 10 with Peralta twice. But the problem with KO artists like George is they don't go rounds very often. Liston only went 2 rounds in the two years leading up to Clay, and I think Foreman only going 2, 1, 2 up to Ali hurt him too.

 

No at that time an Undefeated record was gold and it needed to be preserved. Foreman had his trouble with Peralta in the fact that he really did not hurt Peralta in 2 fights. I saw the 2nd fight and there was no reason to stop it other than to pad Big Georges already padded record. A loss at that time would have set George back but he was exposed for his weaknesses in the Ali and Young fight, LACK OF STAMINA and pace. and showed he could be hurt when he fought a guy willing to trade like Lyle. Lyle packed power but he was not a high level puncher but Foreman showed championship heart and he got off the floor to win.. All in all he was moved well for that time and got Frazier at the perfect time.

Back then I thought Big George was the greatest thing since sliced bread but back then I had a lot to learn about how the opponent determines how good a fighter really is.

 

Do the facts of the time support this? Your intriguing comment about the value of an undefeated record induced me to look back at those of other HW challengers.

Marciano was undefeated of course, but all of his challengers except LaStarza (with three defeats) had losses in double digits.

Of Patterson's challengers, Roy Harris and Tom McNeeley were both 23-0-0, with Ingo at 22-0-0. (Rademacher was making his debut of course, but you may count him as a fourth unbeaten if you feel charitable.)

While Cassius Clay was 19-0-0 when he upset Liston, the only one of his 19 challengers who was undefeated himself was the last one, and the only one to dethrone the GOAT in the ring, 6-0-1 Leon Spinks!

Moving along, Frazier and Mathis were both undefeated when they squared off for the vacant NYSAC HW crown. As a defending titleholder, Smoke had the FOTC under his belt prior to the Foreman ambush in Kingston. None of Joe's other eight challengers were undefeated.

Louis had three undefeated opponents, none of them in title fights. (Kranz, Brescia and Marciano.)

Holmes had ten undefeated opponents during his reign. Dokes was unbeaten, but with a gift draw against Ocasio when Joey Curtis provided him with another kind of gift against Weaver. Previously, Hercules defended his WBA honors against an undefeated Tillis. Having an undefeated record seems to have become an essential accessory during the 1980s, and not much before that. Tate and Coetzee were both unbeaten when they squared off for Ali's vacated WBA title, but Gerrie did get two subsequent shots.

Prior to the end of Ali's era, having an undefeated record doesn't seem to have had the value one might expect today. Historically, Billy Conn's view that there's something wrong with a fighter who doesn't have a loss on his record seems to have predominated.

For George to have been taken the championship limit by Peralta in their rematch could have had HUGE ramifications for Foreman's later career and knockout oriented mindset. Greg should have been to George what Whitehurst was to Liston, and Lowry was to Marciano, the unambiguous message that not everybody can be knocked out. Foreman UD 15 Peralta also could have resulted in a third NABF HW showdown between the two. George would have been seen as less of an irresistible force, but questions about his endurance would have been put to rest, and Ali may have been much less likely to bank on Foreman gassing. It should be remembered that Foreman-Frazier I was indeed an upset, and that George's credibility was somewhat questioned going in, partly because he was undefeated, not in spite of it.

Chuvalo was another opponent meant to extend him. Prematurely stopping Peralta and Chuvalo may ultimately have cost the winner more than the loser. (Chuvalo had already showed against Frazier that he was his own best judge of when to concede a match. Less than two weeks after Foreman, Chuvalo trashed Mike Bruce in Sarajevo, suggesting no great injury sustained at Foreman's hands. Chuvalo was out for nearly a year after Frazier.)

Although George did get to the top, and was obviously greater than Lyle, I actually think Ron was matched better, and moved developmentally further in a shorter span of time. He got started in April 1971, and got to Ali in four years, despite losses to JQ, Young, and the rematch draw with Peralta. Foreman started in October 1969, and got to Kingston in January 1973. George was EIGHT YEARS younger than Ron, and could far better absorb any setbacks than Lyle, who wasn't really hampered by his record blemishes all that much.

Having said that, I don't think Foreman was as protected on the way up as, say, Cooney. Wepner, Kirkman and Chuvalo were reasonable opponents, and he gets major props for rematching Peralta (just as Greg Page should get for taking on George Chaplin a second time), but a Joe Bugner could have done him a world of good between Peralta II and Frazier I, instead of the steady diet of quick knockoffs he got fattened up on waiting for his shot.

When he was in his late 40s, he finally proved against Schultz, Grimsley and Savarese that he could win over the 12 round distance. He showed with Lyle that he could get up to win. The time for this process of challenge and self discovery was before he challenged Frazier for the title, not after Kinshasa. Instead, like Cooney, losing before a world stage crushed him. He didn't have the resilience of a Lyle, who promptly came back from losses to JQ, Young, Ali, Foreman, and even Lynn Ball, with fine wins, even at an advancing age. Foreman was greater, but Lyle was the era's true model for proper heavyweight development. A real bad ass who took on anybody he could, and rematched Young, Peralta and Middleton.

 

George stated on the "On the Ropes" boxing interview that most of his amateur fights came in the Olympic year (1968) and that he was really trying to learn to be a better fighter so he could go back to the Houston 5th Ward and be champ there (he had said previously some real bad-A's hung out back home).

He also said on the program that his total function was to knock people out.

 

I agree with most of what you say and Lyle was thrown in tough, the Quarry fight was one Foreman was admittedly reluctant to take and Lyle took it and lost.

I personally feel that Quarry had a good chance to upset Foreman. Jerry had a good chin and that nullified a puncher, Foreman also was slow and while Jerry was bothered by the speed of Ali and Frazier and a bit of his own lack of upper tier self confidence but I think he knew he could take a shot and go to the body and head well and BIG George was wide and slow.

Foreman had a lot more going for him then just power but I always wondered how he would handle a fighter with big punch.

a lot of punchers surprise me how they handle a guy that shoots back

We all know that fatigue can be worse than a glass jaw like Vince Lombari once said " fatigue can make a coward of us all"