Would jack johnson style work today

I'm looking at that McVey film Seamus posted and I think I might have noticed a few things. The left is extended far out, while the right is low across his midsection for defense, with the left side oriented toward the opponent in the posture of a fencer. The lowered and extended guard is useful in grappling but leaves the head exposed, and he can't punch equally well with either hand from that position. I'm seeing a wide flat footed stance which gets good balance and power but poor speed and maneuverability. He's also lunging wildly and missing instead of using tight controlled snappy movements.

I read that article on him in Cox's Corner and it does make him sound Tysonesque, except for one thing. Why would Charley Rose rank him the seventh best heavyweight of all time in 1968 when he was only the fourth best heavyweight of his own era? Let's look at his ranking:

1.Sam Langford
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Joe Louis
5.Jim Jeffries
6.Gene Tunney
7.Sam McVey
8.Rocky Marciano
9.Jim Corbett
10.Max Baer

That's actually not the worst I've seen, but it doesn't include Ali, Liston, Patterson, or Schmeling. Schmeling defeated Louis and Baer but Baer makes the top 10 and Schmeling doesn't. Also, Rose seems to have a hard on for Johnson's era because three of his top heavyweights are picked from that time. The only one missing is Joe Jeannette who got the better of McVey in their fights. The common denominator appears to be punching power rather than technique or defensive skills for 8 out of the 10 with Tunney and Corbett being a sop to Cereberus.

In regards to Mayweather's opposition it has been fairly light, but I'm not sure it would be that great in the 20s either. Besides Mickey Walker who he'd have no chance against the only guys who would give him a tough night are maybe Joe Dundee and Lew Tendler.

 

Instead of fighting these "not of championship calibre opponents" Jeffries defended against John Finnegan and Jack Munroe, in the case of Munroe turning down a $20,0000 to face McVey in 1903,and a $15,000 gaurantee to face Johnson in 1904.


By the end of 1904 Johnson had beaten.
Childs
Kennedy
Klondike
McCormick
Gardner
Russell
Martin
McVey
Ferguson
Butler
Black Bill

Johnson had the best winning resume of any challenger alive.

Mcvey , in 1903 had lost only to Johnson, and had kod Martin in one round .
Compare their form with Finnegan and Munroe.
Munroe had an 8-3-2 record and had beaten only a thoroughly washed up Sharkey, and a hopelessly alcoholic Maher who had dropped him before succumbing.
Finnegan was coming back from being half killed by Gus Ruhlin ,being dropped multiple times in the massacre.
Ferguson never got a draw against Johnson, he was carried in their first fight in Boston but bady outclassed over 10 rds.
Ferguson challenged Johnson to a rematch at the Philadelphia AC this was immediately prior to Johnson koing Joe Butler in 3 rds. Johnson readily accepted.
Johnson got the NWS over 6 rds in the same arena Johnson had kod Butler.

Ferguson upped the ante by koing Bob Armstrong in 1 rd then challenged Johnson again, Johnson easily outpointed Ferguson over 20rds in Colma.
They fought another 6 rds no dec thenon the 18th of July 1905 they met again in Chelsea Mass, Ferguson did well for 3rds then he began to feel the effects of Johnsons blows. In the 5th Ferguson began to foul.
In the 6th rd Ferguson deliberately belted Johnson ,"south of the border" Johnson dropped to the floor Ferguson leapt the ropes heading for the dressing room, hoping to fool the ref into counting over Johnson.

The ref called Ferguson back to the ring and dsq'd him.

Ferguson did manage a draw against Langford which may have been a cuffs job and he did receive the verdict against Jeannette in a fight.But he NEVER DREW with Johnson.

 

Schmeling was kod by Baer the only time they met.
I don't understand the Cerebus reference are you referring to the Cerebus Syndrome,and the cartoon books of Dave Simms? The only Cerberus I'm familiar with was a 2/3 headed dog that guarded the gates of hell/the underworld, on the other side of the River Styx, but that has one less e in it.

 

Oh, my mistake. I was getting that fight mixed up with his two fights with Lou Nova.

Definition of SOP TO CERBERUS

: a concession or bribe to conciliate a person otherwise liable to be troublesome

Origin of SOP TO CERBERUS

after Cerberus, 3-headed dog guarding the entrance to Hades; fr. the sop given him by Aeneas in Vergil's Aeneid (6,417) to engage his attention while Aeneas slipped by

 

The spelling fooled me.

ps Virgil not Vergil ,you are trying to confuse me again.:nono

 

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

 

Solid find. Like I said the offer was likely an attempt by McVey's handlers to get his name in the press. On achievement, he did not earn a title shot. Perhaps this is the last time the poster McVey will play this card.

Speaking of Sam McVey, I have archived the opinions of at least 20 historians and writers. Only one ( Charlie Rose ) thinks Sam McVey belongs in their top 20. Rose also has Langford #1, and since Langford and Mcvey were in some good matches, perhaps that's the reason why McVey appears in the top ten.

 

The offers of $ 20,000 and $15,000 came from promoters not handlers. Bottom line Johnson and McVey were ignored, but Finnegan and Munroe were accepted.

 

What all of these discussions need is context. That is what you will get in my upcoming book.

 

Can't wait!

 

Lightweights Mayweather would have had to deal with in the 20's
Leonard
Mandell
Dundee
Kansas
Goodrich
Hudkins
Terris
Petrolle
Kaplan
McLarnin
Canzoneri
Berg

Welters he would have had to face.
Walker
Shade
Tendler
Latzo
Miligan
Dundee
Callahan
Baker
Hudkins
Freeman
Mclarnin
Corbett 111
Fields
V Dundee
Show some perspective.

 

In 50 years time so sad old man who's full of **** will try and pass some of these off as being far better than they actually were. The only difference is, people will have film of them and check if they were all that...just like heroes...they nearly all appear better when looking at their record...until finally watched on film, then we realise that in 90% of the cases, their greatness firmly belongs in a bygone era. You can upload some footage if you want and tell me why they're so much better.

 

Gatti is his best win out of the bunch, only by a little bit at that! Mayweather is talented no doubt, but that resume is laughable as you pointed out.

Thank you for pointing that out.

 

A lot is talked about what modern fighters do that old fighters didn't but far less for the other way, modern boxers dont train and fight in the clinch for example.

My view is that the average fighter is more technically proficient now than 100 years ago, but the wild guys are just as wild and the technical guys the same, but with different styles

there is a pattern(generally, not just this thread) of those trying to put down old fighters saying how wild the sluggers were compared to todays technicians, gene tunney looks a **** load better than mayorga, and mayweather looks a **** load better than ketchel, those are styles not era's.

on the other side modern fighters can make the money without fighting 30 times a year, and i don't think its a huge knock against them, less experience and a less pretty resume, yes but thats doesn't make a bad fighter on its own (this doesn't excuse bad matchmaking/ducking, that happens in every era ) but when froch retires no one should say'he only had 50 fights' and count that against him.