Would jack johnson style work today

Holmes defeated Norton, who had a very good perfomance in the match. On that night no one suggested Norton was past his prime. Norton is in the hall of fame, and one day Witherspoon might join him.

But the quesiton still stands, did Johnson win a match vs a hall of fame fighter above 175 pounds when that fighter was in his prime years?

 

...Janitor?

 

Johnson was the 7th Heavyweight champion in boxing history.

He is not going to have a derth of Hall of Fame heavyweights to beat on. So if the question answer to the question you are asking is no, I would like to ask, considering his record against challengers that were over 200 pounds and against the Championship level fighters he did face...is your question revelant? I do not think it is. I have read and learned from plenty of your post before especially on fighters pre-WWII and you seen have a good grasp on them. Here it seems you are unfairly trying to discredit Johnson. I am not sure why.

Does his career really boil down to the question? your presented us?

 

What's prime 22-30?
Max Baer beat Max Schmeling.
Max Schmeling beat Joe Louis.
Joe Louis beat Max Baer.
Ali beat Foreman and Norton.
Frazier beat Ali.
Foreman beat Frazier and Norton.
Holyfield beat Tyson and Bowe.

 

Thanks JLP,


I want to start out by saying I had some good things to say about Johnson in this thread too. I spoke of his fast hands, uppercut, punch anticipation, strength in the clinches, and other things which would still rate as very good or great today.



The question I asked is relevant. I am not asking for 200 pounds. I am asking if Johnson beat anyone great over 175 pounds ( light heavy limit ) when they were in their prime years.



I can only think of one lineal champion who has not ( Willard, but there may be 1 or 2 more ), so the question is very relevant.



I would not say the question is his entire career, but it does offer clarity on the lack of great fighters he defeated when they were in their prime and above 175 pounds. The answer is zero, and compounded by the fact that he Ko'd ( Choynski ) was knocked down ( Ketchel ), and drew ( O'Brien ) to fighters below 175 pounds.

 

If Johnson had defeated that version of Norton, I am quite certain that you would argue that he was outside his prime.

Tim Witherspoon will never be in the Hall of Fame.

The reality is that most great heavyweights do not meet another great heavyweight in their prime.

 

Hey Mendoza. I am sorry to have not done my homework with your other post. I will go back and check them out. I am sure they are accurate.

If Johnson had not beaten any over 175 in his career I would understand the question more. However, he did beat and compete with these fighters at higher weights than himself. I am fine if you hold your question against as well as his missteps against Choynski, Ketchal, and O'Brien. I cannot speak to Choynski and O'Brien fight since I have not researched them but the Ketchall fight I feel a little more qualified to speak on. I have heard it more than a few times, to almost make it common knowledge, that Ketchal and Johnson had an "agreement" to draw but, Ketchal took a cheap shot. Fine. Johnson got up and put Ketchal immediately out no question.

That tells me the Johnson completely off-guard when the shot came and when he got up he was serious and put Ketchal down hard with one shot. I would say that because of race relations at that time Johnson felt compelled to be put in this position to be cuffed. Ketchal took advantage and gets "credit". I guess he deserves it but, in reality he doesn't, and he got what he deserved right away.

IMO, Johnson was also the Greatest world champion, up until Joe Louis, reigning for 7 years. One top of that he was Colored champion from 1903 until he won the World title in 1908. I think Tommy Burns and Marvin Hart would not be in the Heavyweight Championship books if there was no color bar. Johnson maybe wins the title as early as 1905 from Jefferies which I would consider the true being of his prime and held it beating all the colored fighters and all of the white fighters like he did reguardless. He would have been the champion beating Langford, Jennette, and McVey and the rest of the white fighters he did beat defending the title 25 times and reigning for 12 years.

Essentially this is what did happen. I feel like one could make a claim that Johnson's total title reign is the greatest in boxing history including Joe Louis. His World title reign alone was better than all until Joe Louis and I would say he started his reign closing out his prime.

Thoughts?

 

A very decent win for Jack Johnson over a sizeable opponent was his 20 round decision over Denver Ed Martin in 1903.

With rather shaky whiskers the best way to get rid of Martin (as his fractured record clearly states) was via knockout, but Johnson outpointed him when Martin was on something of a roll.

In this case Johnson was done for both height & reach against a respected boxer.

 

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[url]http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=009821&cat=boxer[/url]

 

Johnson fought and beat Jennette, Mcvey, and Langford. He did it mutiple times as the colored champion. If he had to opportunity he would have presumable beat as a world champion.

 

The obrien fight was a 6 rounder in a 22 foot ring. Obrien ran around the ring pot shotting Johnson the entire time. Obrien as well as Tunney, Corbett, Ali...any quick boxer can make a larger slower fighter no matter how great look bad. Add to this that Obrien is considered one of the best lt hwts ever to live. I see absolutely no reason to downgrade Johnson because of an even fight after 6 rounds with one of boxings best.

Secondly I contend that the kd by Ketchel was a fake. The manner in which Johnson goes down screams fake, the punch does not seem to catch Johnson solid.....it perhaps scrapes the back of Johnson head. It does not seen real especially with JJ heading to the canvas as the punch s being thrown. Gunboat Smith who was at ringside and trained with JJ for the fight also stated the KD was faked. Also it only takes one punch to swell up a fighters eye...can happen in any bout no matter who it's against or the fights duration.

 

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