Would Jimmy Bivins be P4P #1 Today ?

I'll first start by saying I might have misunderstood the point of this thread, as I took it to mean something like "If we put Bivins in 2026 would he be able to become p4p 1?" where it seems like the actual thing being discussed is "Is Bivins p4p greater than anyone currently active" which is a very different question although they could potentially have the same answer depending on you view things.

The SHW question is an interesting one but it is also one I'm not sure really matters in the grand scheme of things especially if we assume the thread is about comparing Bivin's resume in a p4p sense. I think for me to understand the weight of this question that it seems you want it to have you would need to explain why winning over SHWs has a huge impact on a p4p list. For example to me, I can think of plenty of boxers who don't have wins over SHWs that I would rank over Usyk such as Pacquiao, Mayweather, Armstrong, Robinson, Leonard (both of them), etc, etc. So at least in terms of convincing me that Usyk is greater than Bivins you would have to show why wins over SHWs makes up for the clear gap in quality of resumes here. Because if you don't, Bivins will be another name in that long list of boxers without a win over SHW who are greater p4p than Usyk (at least to me and that means little because my opinion doesn't matter but I think we're all just having fun here)

My answer to that first question ends up being Bivins did not beat a SHW or at least not one of the same quality as some of the ones that Usyk beat but I would then follow up my answer with a question of my own which is "So what?"

Your second question is also interesting. However, I believe that most here like to seperate h2h and resume into two different lists so this question will not be of use to most people's all greatness list or on the question of who is greater between Bivins and Usyk. Personally for me, I've never been able to come up with a set of criteria that I feel is justified which is why I've always struggled with making all time great lists. I want to eventually start making some this year but I don't know if I'll get around to it. I think I would include h2h skill set as mattering in my greatness list but I recognize that I would be in the minority in doing so and I would still be factoring other things before h2h and Bivins would be favored in those categories so I predict Bivins would still be greater than Usyk if I were to make a list but again, I could be wrong on that because I have not started making the list yet.

So my answer to your second question is most people here could bite the bullet that Usyk is better h2h and still have Bivins greater. The question is not relevant to most people's all time lists. Although to be clear, I'm not saying that everyone would bite that bullet, I imagine that @Ioakeim Tzortzakis is probably typing up a comically detailed argument about how Bivins is better h2h right now but my answer to question is that someone who believes Bivins is greater would not need to type up such an argument if they had a criteria that did not factor in h2h which is standard practise on the forum.

This was basically just a long winded way of saying "Those are interesting questions but they don't really matter to the current question being discussed until you provide an argument for thinking they are relevant" and I'm sorry about that. Still hope it helped somehow.

 

This is true but the reverse is also true so I think I would like further reasoning on why wins over SHWs matter so much in a p4p sense that they can remove the huge gap between the quality of resumes here.

In case it is not clear what I'm referring to when I say the reverse is also true, Bivins overcame challenges Usyk never had to face. Such as having to face way greater p4p fighters such as Burley, Charles, Marshall, Moore, etc. Usyk never had to face anyone who is top 3 in their division in an all time sense, Bivins did that multiple times. Usyk never had to beat multiple all time greats within the same year, Bivins did. Usyk never had to face the challenge of fighting more than 5 times a year, Bivins did.

I would like to hear more reasons as to why wins over SHWs is such a big deal because simply being challenges that Bivins never had to face is not enough to me when the same could also be said the other way around, that Usyk never faced certain challenges that Bivins had to deal with.

 

Of course you are not because if you were remotely objective you would lose.

You've bought into the rosy-lensed view of the olden days of supermen wizards with forgotten techniques lost to the mists of time. It's all garbage.

Were they good? Of course. Could they hang with today's fighters? Yes, some of them, with all the proper advantages that modern training and science offer. Were they unbeatable? Hardly. Their records prove this. But then the Classicists retort is, they only lost to their contemporaries who were ALSO great. Thus, a self affirming circular argument. The same as not debating as it is designed to prove itself. Good work there.

 

The first question was mostly me poking fun at someone who has a history of downplaying Usyk’s ability. That said, I do think it ties into something more substantive. Someone else in the thread pointed out that a number of Bivins’ wins came when he was the bigger man, and from the limited footage I’ve seen, that wouldn’t surprise me. He doesn’t particularly impress me on film. So while I can respect his credentials and résumé on paper, the eye test doesn’t suggest to me that he’s operating anywhere near Usyk’s level head-to-head which is why I brought up the second question.

If we’re asking whether Bivins could be P4P #1 today, then head-to-head ability absolutely matters. The athletic baseline in modern boxing is much higher then what he had to deal with at his best. Bivins never dealt with the kind of athleticism you see today across divisions. And as much as classics fan like to pretend that doesn't matter, it does by an objective standard.

So evaluating his hypothetical standing in 2026 requires comparing him directly to the current elite, fighters like Dmitry Bivol and Artur Beterbiev at light heavyweight, Jai Opetaia at cruiserweight, and Oleksandr Usyk at heavyweight.

When I compare what I’ve seen from Bivins to those fighters, I don’t see evidence that he could handle that level of athleticism and technical ability. Maybe he could compete at middleweight today with how weak the division is there, but that wouldn’t automatically place him over the fighters I listed, who are in or around the top ten pound-for-pound.

So to me, the H2H discussion is the most important question when deciding if he could be P4P #1 in the modern era. There are simply too many unknowns about how he’d translate, and the footage we do have doesn’t strongly suggest he would thrive at that level today.

 

Oh so I misunderstood my misunderstanding. I'm reaching levels of being wrong that few have dared to achieve is what I'm hearing. I broke new ground.

Ok then I think my opinion is that the best answer is to be agnostic on the matter because I don't know what fights Bivins will be able to get in this era or how he would adjust to the changes that have happened that affect both the inside the ring parts of boxing and the outside the ring parts as well. I agree on ranking Bivins higher than Usyk although I think I would maybe have it slightly closer than you simply due to a difference in criteria.

I can totally relate to being in the mood to watch a specific mood or era and not really being able to divert from that niche in the moment. I rarely watch boxing at the moment due to being in college and having other hobbies/interests that are slowly overtaking boxing but when I do it's always a random urge I get to watch a specific era or weight class. I've tried to do watch projects like scoring every extremely famous controversial decision but then I get distracted by 1970s flyweights or something and then I give up on that project after watching like 4 fights related to it.

 

The difference here is I can easily see Usyk beating everyone Bivins beat. I can't see Bivins beating most of the fighters Usyk beat especially not at HW.

 

You like to use your little childish quotes like 0/2 like that means anything to me. As soon as you dont agree with someone you revert to these little childish snide comments. You actually didn't show me that anything wasn't true. I do stand by my FAT comment. My opinion im entitled to it. The level of talent Bivins faced is like nothing absolutely nothing compared to the average fighters Usyk faced. Briedis being the only talented one. Not great just good and he took Usyk tooth and nail. Who on Usyks resume compares to Charles Burley Moore ect ect. All you care is about the height and weight which I dont give a rats azz about. FAT

 

No, what happened is I asked you a direct question: what does Bivins do better than Usyk?

Instead of answering that, you shifted to saying Usyk only beat one good opponent and that Bivins faced better talent. That still doesn’t explain what Bivins does better technically footwork? Defense? Ring IQ? Punch variety? Inside work? What specifically?

If you believe Bivins is superior, then answer this: if they swapped opponents, who performs better? Does Bivins beat Joshua? Does he beat Fury? Does he handle modern cruiserweight size and athleticism better than Usyk handled Bivins’ era?

You keep repeating the same résumé argument, but you haven’t actually explained how Bivins’ skill set translates better head-to-head. That’s the discussion I’m trying to have.

 

This trap was set as expertly as if you were Bob Fitzsimmons his own very self.

 

How in God's name am I supposed to know what Bivins does better with the limited footage of him out there? ??

 

This is ****ing Gold, next time we compare who's the greater fighter between Ricardo Lopez and Usyk then let's do this and swap opponents so Ricardo has to face men who outweigh him by 100 pounds each and Usyk has to face toddlers

 

Then how can you confidently say he’d be great today?

Résumés don’t fight fighters do. If we don’t have enough footage to properly evaluate his skill set, then claiming he would be elite today or even on the level of the current top P4P fighters is pure speculation.