Would Jimmy Bivins be P4P #1 Today ?

I am suggesting that MWs and LHWs would be the same today its just that being the same today is not acceptable for a boxing career. Unless a fighter is named Derrick Chisora.

Some elite fighters did the modern strategy anyway like Sugar Ray Robinson. The current was pushing the other way though.

 

I'm going to tell you that, and I will be right.

Charles looks to be fast, skilled and an extremely hard puncher in the film I've seen. Very good punch selection. Clearly has superb timing and a wonderful left hook. He decided does not look to be miles worse than Moore in any appreciable category. About the only thing Moore might have is straighter punching and even that's not a whitewash.

At the very least, Charles looks like a guy who would match up with Moore quite well and exactly like someone who could give Moore all sorts of trouble.

I don't even hate the overarching argument you're making, but this particular example ain't it, chief.

 

That’s a skewed comparison. You’re comparing Bivins’ lower career weights to Usyk’s fully matured heavyweight frame in his mid-to-late 30s.

When Oleksandr Usyk was in his early 20s, he competed at middleweight in the amateurs and later at light heavyweight. Fighters grow and fill out over time early career weight doesn’t permanently define their weight when they grow older and fill out.

Bivins fought much of his prime around 180–190 and fought at heavyweight in an era where 190–210 was normal for the division. Usyk at cruiserweight was around 200–210 which seems to be around his natural weight. That’s closer to a 15–25 lb gap, not the 40–50 lb figure you’re using, which compares Usyk’s heavyweight peak to Bivins’ lowest credible weights. Not even mentioning that Usyk has regularly fought men outweighing him by similar or greater margins at heavyweight.

Projecting Bivins as a modern super middleweight also assumes he wouldn’t benefit from modern nutrition, strength training, and conditioning. Given that he fought at heavyweight in his era, it’s at least plausible he’d land closer to cruiserweight today rather than draining to 168.

 

A résumé establishes historical ranking. It shows who a fighter beat in their era. What it doesn’t automatically prove is how that fighter would perform in a modern competitive setting.

You’re arguing that because Bivins had a strong résumé, that alone tells us he’d be elite today. My point is that résumé alone isn’t enough to make that projection. To get a true sense of how a fighter would do today, we have to look at their skill set, physical profile, and how those attributes would translate against modern fighters.

Beating historically great opponents doesn’t function like a transferable “power level.” It proves success within a specific competitive context. Projecting beyond that requires more than name recognition.

That’s the distinction I’m making.

 

I like some points here.

But the argument can be made that today's sharks are swimming in different waters. Athletes are better today. Methods of preparation, from film to diet to recovery to training, are better. The talent pool is much broader across the globe. There's a ton of money invested at the top end of the sport. (We would like to assume) the mob has less control on actual outcomes.

Your examples of Marciano and Charles point to two different realities.

Charles doesn't look like the Moore style magician on film, at least to most observers. Because most observers are looking to be blown away by dramatic highlight maneuvers, the Jersey Joe dance steps, or the Locche defensive clips, when it is the guy who is consistently 1/10th of a second better at processing and reacting who is going to win more. It can be subtle but it will always be consistent. Therein lies Charles and he would always be that guy.

Meanwhile, we have a guy in Marciano who by no hope or prayer could compete today as a heavy, and would have a steep hill to climb just to compete at cruiser. Too many holes in his game, too few advantages he would hold over any modern cruiser, and in the end just too physically handicapped.

 

Why would he move up with "modern strength and conditioning" when basically every single fighter in the world uses it to go down in weight? Including Usyk btw; he could've been a HW from day one but wasn't because he didn't have to be.

 

Something important about this comp is that Bivins career was mostly 10 rounders. All but 1 of his duration title fights was a 10 rounder. That sounds like something that would favor Usyk. But 12 rounders make it easier for the better fighter to avoid losing.

If Usyks fights were 10 rounders he'd lose 2 wins and 2 clear wins would turn into close fights.

Chisora UD Win to Draw
AJ I UD Win to SD Win
AJ II SD Win to MD Loss
Fury II 8-4 UD Win to 6-4 UD Win

I think the Breidis fight would have been a draw.

 

Not at all.

Bivins was 5ft 9ins and Usyk 6ft 3ins.

Bivins world level/prime pro weight ranged from around 160lbs (which is what he weighed when he beat ATG Charley Burley) to 190lbs. Usyk's around 207lbs to 227lbs. 47lbs difference low to low and 37lbs difference high to high.

Even taking Bivins towards the higher end of that range, he weighs roughly the same as Mbili, who is also 5ft 9ins, does on fight night. Even towards the end of Bivins prime, he's essentially around the same height and fight night as Mbili, who is obviously not "comparable in size to Usyk". I've seen some terrible takes on this site, that's one of the very worst.

 

I just realized it was me who started this Bivins vs Uysk thing.

 

Don't worry about it mate, the topic of the thread is about p4p #1 today, which is Usyk, so it's only reasonable he's part of the discussion.

Whether Uysk or Bivins are better p4p is, of course, subjective.

They are objectively not "comparable in size" (obviously), however.

 

No clue why the Ring has Usyk over Inoue at the p4p rankings, Inoue UNARGUABLY gave us a better 2025 entertainment wise and resume wise

 

Same reason he fought at heavyweight for big parts of his career? If a guy was already willing to move up in his own era, it’s not crazy to think he wouldn’t be trying to drain himself down to 168 today.

Modern strength and conditioning doesn’t only make guys cut weight it also helps them put on mass as Usyk did to compete at HW.

And Usyk didn’t start as some natural heavyweight. He fought at middleweight and light heavyweight in the amateurs, then cruiserweight as a pro around 200–210. He had to bulk up to compete at heavyweight so it’s not like he was always some 225-pound guy cutting weight to fight at cruiserweight.

My point is just that assuming Bivins would fight at SMW isn’t some obvious conclusion. If he fought at heavyweight back then, there’s a good argument he’d be closer to cruiserweight today.