Would Jimmy Bivins be P4P #1 Today ?

You’re still framing it in a way that makes the gap look bigger than it actually is because you're comparing Bivins at 160 to Usyk at 227 while ignoring the fact that when Usyk was younger, he fought at middleweight and light heavyweight before he filled out. By the time Bivins was fully established, he was regularly fighting around 185–190 and competing at heavyweight.

If you compare those stages (which is the most fair comparison imo) Bivins around 185–190 and Usyk around 200–210 you’re talking about a 15–25 lb difference. That’s not some outrageous mismatch, especially in the heavier weight classes.

And height alone doesn’t decide everything either. There have been shorter heavyweights before. Being 5'9" doesn’t automatically mean “modern super middleweight.” Bivins reportedly had a 76″ reach, while Oleksandr Usyk has a 78″ reach that’s only a 2-inch difference. Functionally, that’s a lot closer than the Christian Mbilli comparison suggests, since Mbilli’s reach is around 72″.

I’m not saying they’re identical in size. I’m saying the comparison isn’t ridiculous like you’re making it out to be.

 

This is the most bizarre post I've seen in some time. Congrats on that.

I don't have all day. In fact I have a few minutes. So, I'll address a few points here.

In regards to Charles... You're picking performances 80 fights into a career when he was outside his god given weight class, after having faced pretty much the entire Black Murderer's Row his entire career to prove what point? That he just wasn't that good? That he wasn't as good as a ham and egger journeyman who lost every third time he stepped into the ring?

In regards to the internationalization of the sport, go look at Ring's Top 10 heavies right now. One Yank and he's at 10. Cruiserweight, no Yanks. Lightheavy, 1 Yank. Supermiddle, 1 Yank. Are you trying to tell me that the globalization of the sport made no difference, or that it is over?

I got guns to shoot. Good day.

 

Where have I done that?

I literally compared their respective lowest prime weights (Usyk c.47lbs heavier) and their respective highest prime weights (c.37lbs heavier).

You're arguing that black is white. If you fancy a bet, with a poll "are Usyk and Bivins comparable in size", with options yes and no, let me know. You can even choose the forfeit. Call it a crazy hunch, but I think you'll refuse.

 

He fought at heavyweight then for money, while not being too undersized. There's generational wealth to be made in any division today; SMW being the most lucrative choice with Canelo around.

Yes, I'm not saying that it can't be used to get bigger - of course it can - I'm saying that most top boxers from this century have used it to go down in weight, not up. Usyk included.

Usyks size in the amateurs means literally nothing to me. He turned pro - which is what actually matters - at 6'3 200lbs; he fought in the Super HW WSS tourney and won his medal at 91kg. If he wanted to turn pro at heavyweight, he obviously could have done so. Instead he cut down the 10-15lbs or whatever he cuts to 200lbs, and was 26 when he turned pro. At 26, Bivins at 185lbs and only really campaigning at HW because it'd earn him more money.

A 30lbs weight gap and 6" in height is obviously two wildly different sized guys. Nobody is saying Joshua and Usyk are the same size, but the size difference in their fights is actually smaller.

But that's just is, it is a pretty easy assumption to make. Callum Smith, Caleb Plant, David Benavidez, David Morrell were/are all SMWs and bigger men than Bivins. Kovalev, Stevenson, Yarde, Beterbiev, Smith Jr and basically every other LHW in the last 10 years outside of Bivol are bigger than Bivins.

When was the last time you saw a 5'9 cruiserweight who weighed 185lbs without cutting at 26? It just doesn't happen.

 

The real Bivins died due to injuries on the Christoforidis bout and the LHW and beyond Bivins is his clone [/COLOR]

 

The issue that you keep missing is that you’re comparing Usyk at his fully filled-out frame to Bivins when he wasn't yet filled out. That’s what makes the gap look bigger than it really is.

Usyk spent his younger years in the amateurs at middleweight and light heavyweight before he filled out. Bivins spent his younger years as a pro, so if you’re going to compare “lowest” weights, you should compare those stages not Usyk as a fully matured pro to Bivins as a young man still filling out. That’s not a fair comparison otherwise.

That’s literally all I’m saying. If you compare similar stages instead of lowest-to-highest extremes, the size gap shrinks.

I’m not saying they’re the same size. I’m saying acting like the comparison is ridiculous is overstating it. And a poll doesn’t prove anything. This is about how you frame the comparison, not which side gets more votes.

 

I’m not saying Bivins was the same size as Usyk. I’m saying he wasn’t small for his era. He was a big light heavyweight who regularly fought around 185–190.

So projecting him strictly as a modern 168-pounder ignores that he was already operating closer to cruiserweight territory relative to his time, and he had the frame for it with his long reach so it seems he was pretty comfortable in the high-180s. With modern nutrition and strength training, it’s just as reasonable to think he’d sit around modern LHW or even low cruiser rather than cut down to 168. Cutting to SMW would require him to shrink, not grow. Staying near his historical fighting range seems more plausible.

I just don’t think it’s as simple as plugging his height into today’s divisions and calling it settled.

 

I'm comparing their prime pro weight ranges. Bivins around 160-190lbs and Usyk around 207-227lbs. I've been very clear on this to you multiple times now. The difference on their respective low, middle and upper ranges is vast.

Usyk’s weight as an amateur is not relevant to the discussion, we are comparing their respective sizes as prime pro boxers, however, if you're interested, Usyk was 200lbs at the 2008 Olympics when he was aged 21. Bivins weighed 159.5lbs at tbe age of 21 vs Anton Christorforidis.

No response on the offer of a bet? How about a voluntary ban, time period of your choosing?

P.s. I know you'll refuse the bet, even if I agree to have "lost" if them not being of comparable size gets less than double the votes, which I do agree to. Even with those cards stacked in your favour, I know you won't accept because you know you've said something very silly (again).

 

We clearly disagree on what the relevant comparison standard is because you’re anchoring on documented prime pro ranges and treating that as definitive. I’m looking at relative size within era and how that might translate.

Even accepting your numbers, Bivins was regularly competing around 185–190. That overlaps with modern light heavyweight fight-night weights and isn’t remotely close to modern 168.

I’m not saying they were the same size, I’m saying the gap doesn’t automatically force Bivins into a modern super middleweight box.

If you don’t agree with that framing, that’s fine. But that’s the distinction I’ve been making.

 

He was simultaneously the #1 contender at Heavyweight and Light Heavyweight in 1943.

Bear in mind that the titles wee frozen, so the champions in those weight classes were inactive.

That might make for a viable argument.

Heavyweights
Joe Louis*, Champion

1. This content is protected
2. Tami Mauriello
3. Turkey Thompson
4. Roscoe Toles
5. Harry Bobo
6. Big Boy Brown
7. Lee Savold
8. Lou Brooks
9. Tony Musto
10. Joey Maxim

Light Heavyweights
Gus Lesnevich*, Champion

1. This content is protected
2. Anton Christoforidis
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Freddie Mills
5. Lloyd Marshall
6. Jack Coggins
7. Nate Bolden
8. Alabama Kid
9. Johnny (Bandit) Romero
10. Herbie Katz

 

A pattern I've observed with you is, you say something ridiculous, get called out for it, then insist you meant something else. You posted "Usyk and Bivins are comparable in size". They aren't. Obviously.

Again, Bivins prime weights were between 160-190lbs. 160lbs is roughly the average fight night weight for a WW today and 190lbs roughly the average fight night weight for a LHW (I assure you, I have recorded substantive data on reported fight night weights). So, yes, Bivins, when towards the heavier of his prime weight range, weighed about the same as SMWs do on fight night today. Much of the discussion on this thread has been subjective, but that is a fact.