Would Joe Frazier Size Have Hindered Him, If He'd Come Along After The 1980s?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, May 13, 2024.



  1. Hotep Kemba

    Hotep Kemba Member Full Member

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    1 belt makes intuitive sense. A champion is a single individual after all.

    Even 2 belts makes some sense, have two champions face off to become THE champion.
    Anything after that and the word champion really loses it's meaning.

    But even still, if the 4 ABC belts had mandatory and extremely frequent tournaments where all 4 belt holders had to fight eachother, or if the fight for vacant belts was only done between top 8 ranked contenders I wouldn't even necessarily have a problem with it. The fact that these organisations are all flying by the seat of their pants and can have some number #22 ranked dickhead fight some number #127 ranked dickhead to get a vacant belt and become a "World Champion" is ridiculous.

    I mean hell, some Scull dude that nobody had ever heard of now has a mandatory shot for Canelo as a reward for beating another dude that nobody ever heard of, after winning a belt nobody knew existed.
     
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  2. Barrf

    Barrf Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Would be an amazing fight. I’d bet on FOTC Frazier for sure.

    But we wouldn’t likely get FOTC Frazier, because Holyfield just isn’t going to do anything to make Frazier have some burning hatred for him. Given how much Frazier disliked the loud **** talkers, he’d probably rather like Holyfield.

    So… I guess it’s a toss-up? Two tough as nails scrappers who grind guys down, who like it up close and mean. Holyfield is definitely better than Frazier at distance, but could he resist the scrap when the other guy is so willing and wanting it, AND the other guy is smaller than him? Likely not. So a toss-up.
     
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  3. Niels Probst

    Niels Probst Member banned Full Member

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    I think Frazier would have been too big for lightheavyweight. Remember, he was 205 ½ in the first 1971 Ali fight, and he was absolutely ripped in that fight. 205 ½ - 175 = 30 ½ pounds... I doubt that would be possible. But, he cleans out the cruiser division for sure.
     
  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He wasn't ripped. Williams, Terrell and Norton were ripped, Joe was definitely fleshier. I'd guess at least 5% body fat higher, probably around 15%. So I think he was 10-15 lbs from being really ripped.

    But, yeah, even if he could get down that low, he'd still be big for LHW. There are guys today that drain more than that in water weight, though, so it is doable, but tough. And I think he'd be comfortable at cruiser. Ramos and Chuvalo were strong 210-215 lbs guys and he did the job with them without fuss. We haven't had any CWs with Foreman's power. I don't see many that would be a big threat there.

    As many here are saying, at HW it probably looks different. It's not great being a swarmer and giving up 50 lbs. Not saying every 250+ lbs fighter would beat him, but the style isn't greatly suited for a big size disadvantage,
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2024
  5. Barrf

    Barrf Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Most people don't have visible abs at 15%, and Frazer had visible abs in the FOTC. Not great ones, but they were visible. My guess would be low double digits. 10-12%. Ali was leaner than him there, probably in the high single digits -- 8% or so.

    If you look at Beterbiev or Bivol (especially Bivol, Beterbiev is a bit too hairy to judge as well) you can see they are leaner than FOTC Ali was. They're probably in the 6% range.

    Shred Joe down to 6%, he's probably 195. That's within range of making LHW if he's someone who can handle the dehydration/hydration cycle without being messed up physically. No way to know if he'd be one of those guys or not without trying it. My take is that he's a tough SOB so he could probably take it. If he ends up 190 after a good shred, even better, LHW is definitely within reach.

    Why fight at LHW when he could make cruiser naturally without any dehydration crap? Isn't there more money/prestige at LHW? Plus, assuming his abilities and power stayed the same, his well above average power at HW would make him a certified banger at LHW. Imagine him tossing out those left hooks with the relative (for weight class) power of a Tua/Morrison/Cooney left hook? With how good at he was at landing them, even doubling them up and landing both back to back? Good lord he'd starch everyone.

    Sorry. Just having fun with my thought experiment.
     
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  6. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No, 6% is a body builder on stage night. That's ridicously low and not really conducive to athletic performance since you have to kill yourself to get those last 2-3% off. UFC LHW champion Perreira is like 9.6% and he's lean as ****, leaner than both Beterbiev and Bivol. More like an early 60's Clay, when he was still in the 190's. No lower than 8% even for someone like Norton at his leanest, I reckon.

    But, yes, I agree that even a ripped Frazier would be around 195 lbs, if he could get that low without compromising himself. He was naturally porky and upwards 300 lbs, I think, when he worked in a slaughter house, or something similar. And, as I said, I don't think he would find it worthwhile to drain 20 lbs on a regular basis even if he could get that ripped. But it could be done.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2024
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  7. sauhund II

    sauhund II Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Frazier was steered clear of Punchers before Ali.

    Frazier is 1-4 in his signature wins, stopped 3 times.

    Frazier met what I would call a modern Heavyweight Puncher who usually huffed and puffed after the 4/5th round and was blown out like a little kid, twice, so here goes the "15 round stamina theory" of "smoking".

    Frazier matches up pretty good vs Holyfield/Moorer/Byrd/Ruiz, all non Punchers., three of them are cream puffs.................he gets oblitered vs Tyson/Bowe/Lewis and jabbed and grabbed to death vs WK.
     
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  8. Hotep Kemba

    Hotep Kemba Member Full Member

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    Beterbiev isn't 6% body fat. He's likely in the 10%-12% range.

    I daresay that there's never been a single combat sports athlete that's stepped into a ring at below 8% body fat, and if they did they probably never stepped out of it again. Even athletes like sprinters and swimmers don't tend to go below that. People below that body fat percentage look like living diagrams. Can see their bones sticking out of their back, every vein, every muscle striation, it's as obvious as it is gross lol. They can also barely stand up without passing out. People like to exaggerate numbers (like the NFL listing some people at 2% body fat, which is literally impossible to do without being hospitalised or dead) and so perceptions get skewed.

    But, let's say Frazier with access to modern diuretics gets to 195 at 8% body fat, the main factor would be fight frequency and age. A late 20's Frazier having 2 super fights a year would probably have the time and ability required to cut 20lbs. An early 20's Frazier fighting 4-5 times a year to pad his record probably wouldn't have the time, and 30's Frazier probably wouldn't have the ability to regardless.

    So Frazier could potentially become the best H2H Light Heavyweight and Cruiserweight of all time. Noice.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2024
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  9. West of Hollywood

    West of Hollywood Active Member Full Member

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    I believe the FOTC version of Frazier would beat every fighter who ever existed.
     
  10. BoxingFan2002

    BoxingFan2002 Member Full Member

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    I still don't think he'll ever beat Foreman and prime Ali.
     
  11. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member Full Member

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    or marciano 49-0 baby!
     
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Would have been the GOAT cruiserweight, Oleksander Who?, that's any era, and pre-Lewis he's obviously doing huge damage at HW also. Even today he'd have had some excellent, memorable HW fights. In all time p4p geek sense he'd have his standing enhanced by his size I think, depending.
     
  13. BoxingFan2002

    BoxingFan2002 Member Full Member

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    Rocky that beat Walcott vs FOTC would be war, I would pick Rocky but never be sure who's gonna win.
    I think both man would never be able to box after that.
     
  14. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    There's no basis for this "steered clear" of punchers. Remember this is the guy who took on Foreman when he could have rematched Ali and made much more money.

    Was Lyle really a harder punchers than Bonavena, whom he rematched despite being decked thrice in the first meet? I'm not sure of that.

    Shavers and Liston were the ones in Frazier's time that definitely was harder punchers than anyone he faced bar Foreman.

    A fight with Liston was never called for by any side as far as I know. And Liston didn't make much sense for an up and coming fighter, even though Quarry seems to have wanted him (say what you will about Quarry, but he feared no man).

    There was a window to meet Shavers in 1973. But its's not like Shavers was the natural choice or anything. He was just one among the rest of contenders.

    So its's hard to say anything for sure, but you would not expect someone who was hiding from punchers to face Foreman twice. Neither time as the challenger.

    Bonavena x 2, Chuvalo, Quarry x 2, Ramos and Foreman x 2.... That's a good part of the biggest punchers around back then and he did not shy away from rematches either.

    That he didn't face Lyle and Shavers, who were coming into contention during the last 3-4 years during Frazier's career, when he only fought twice a year, doesn't really say much.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2024
  15. MixedMartialLaw

    MixedMartialLaw combat sports enthusiast Full Member

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    It would be very generous to say Frazier had visible abs in the FOTC

    https://www.wbaboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/image.jpg

    I think Ali actually looked more ripped than Frazier that fight.
     
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