Would Prime Foreman Ever Beat Jimmy Young?

Yup the way people talk about it here, Young won every round 10-8, except the 7th which he won 10-9.

I'm starting to think people here don't actually watch the fights they discuss, based on this and the fact that many here don't see the difference between Foreman pre and post Ali. Though I also may have an unfair advantage due to having boxed (if you use the term boxed loosely ).

Another theory is, it's lumped in with the Lyle bouts because all three bouts are examples of Young beating punchers, and by extension people think it was as one-sided as those fights.

My feelings exactly. Young got away with A LOT of holding without any deductions. Clancy felt the same way (though I'm not a fan of his excuses) Article clipped from Lincoln Journal Star - Newspapers.com™

At the end of the day, I can't be too upset about it, knowing what Foreman has got away with in the past without being penalized. I think it was Boone Kirkman, he'd shoved to the ground to start the fight.

 

No Foreman is "The King Of Brawlers" and his royal pedigree overcomes all stylistic issues and film "just cause" like in the Toney thread lol.

 

Foreman should have won. His management made some terrible decisions taking the fight with such a known cutie as Young in tropical heat magnified by ring lights and a 21 foot huge ring .. George was a physical marvel who once again lost his poise ... it was far from a one sided fight like Youngs bouts vs Lyle .. it was pretty close and George almost had him out in the 7th ... I feel George was coming into his own and if he kept fighting he was on his way even with a decision loss ... he could beat Young in a rematch.

 

Ah yes, the tropical heat and ring lights of a March night in San Juan which unilaterally affected Foreman and didn't matter for Young. It's not like Foreman was used to training in a hot place like Texas.

 

This may be true, but four hour plane rides within 48 hours of a fight were unfortunately his kryptonite.

 

I like how Machen evidently being one armed against Liston is “prove it” watch the film, watch him use his right in other bouts… “prove it some of other way, but you can’t trust what Eddie says either” the same sort of people when Foreman losses to Jimmy Young in his 20s while active, rebuilding and on his way for the rematch with Ali which would make him record breaking money… “the plane ride” “Clancys fault” “it was too hot for a Texan” “the lights bro” “he was carrying Young to prove his stamina…” “He was too sad he said so”

 

Ali KO'd Lyle and Foreman, and by the Word of Cosell, he rope a doped them both. Which by Ancient Tradition translates to letting them hit him. And also outpunched Frazier at Manila.

So Ali has a better case for King of the Brawlers than George.

 

Wonder what Young's excuses were for not beating Foreman even worse.

 

The real “king of brawlers” lets himself be hit, gets up, fights it out and almost losses so you’d be right… a guy like Lennox who crushes people isn’t a true brawler Godzilla always had close fights, Lennox is more like Louis a guy who usually easily dispatched of people not on his level lol that is worthless.

 

Tyson and Holyfield didn't get knocked down enough in their primes to outfight a seasoned brawler like Foreman.

Patterson was the true King of the Brawlers.

 

“King Of Brawlers” for Patterson it is but the worlds best ring cutter for Foreman he has credentials against (maybe) 1 round with Ali then Roman, Norton and Chuvalo.

 

Bang on.

 

Foreman took in 15 and 27 fights respectively into his two fights (‘70 and ‘71) with Peralta.

Bar one card, he won the first fight clearly and he secured a 10th rd TKO in the second fight - a later round TKO maybe but then other fighters are also conversely criticised for not being able to secure a KO beyond X number of rounds - at least Foreman proved that he could.

Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the scorecards for the second Peralta fight as at the time of the stoppage.

Foreman was obviously in the midst of a stylistic transition when he fought Young.

If Young was different to the styles of Frazier and Norton, then Foreman himself was also different to the guy who slayed Joe and Kenny.

In the Young fight, Foreman was clearly unsure of himself and didn’t throw a lot of punches at all - including his failure to properly utilise his jab which was effective when he did bother to throw it.

Re the point (in isolation) of Young’s record reflecting a guy difficult to stop, Frazier was that guy also (never stopped, in fact) until he ran into Foreman.

Also, while Young was only ever stopped by Shavers until the Cooney match, he was also still dropped hard by Earnie (rd 4?) in their rematch - if Shavers could hurt Young badly twice - and a fast tiring George did same in round 7 against Jimmy anyway. - the 73/74 could likely do same earlier and finish the job.

Comparing the Foreman who destroyed Norton to the version that faced Young, the differences are night and day.

Vs Norton, Foreman had already come to a level of useful patience but not so impractical as the inappropriate passivity he displayed against Young.

Against Norton, Foreman fought with absolute confidence and complete conviction, throwing a good number of well placed punches while pumping the jab consistently.

He was also so much sharper and didn’t look already fatigued before first bell as he did against Young. - George’s face was already notably puffy in Puerto Rico - a tell tale sign of significant dehydration.

Finally, I agree that the Young fight was closer than popularly perceived - and the point deduction was unjust -

Young, whilst having fought a great fight, was doing a lot of junky and not so legal stuff himself - not least being his frequent holding, incurring Foreman’s reactive shoves - but Foreman was the pre ordained villain and Jimmy knew how and when to whinge to gain sympathy.

 

All good mate.

I'm really struggling to understand your criticism of Foreman's performances against Peralta. He was very successful against Peralta, winning nearly every round in their two fights. That despite, Foreman being extremely green facing a seasoned ex-champ in Peralta. This is nothing but a + for Foreman in my book and disproves this theory that Foreman either gets Young early or automatically collapses. If Foreman had lost, or if they were fighting somewhat evenly, you might have a point (with the caveat that Peralta was the much more experienced fighter)

That's the thing.
1. Foreman wasn't aggressive early against Young at all yet tired at about the same rate which he did against Ali.

2. Even if he can't stop Young as you suspect, he's almost certainly going to slow him down, making him a much easier target down the line. Foreman was one of the best body-punchers in history.

Even if you go with the notion that Young would avoid Foreman's best blows he'd need to expend a lot of energy evading an active Foreman.

Think you might be confused mate. I never once brought up Frazier (Nor Norton for that matter) in my post.

Ali wasn't stationary by choice. He tried to be elusive but Foreman's absurd ring-cutting forced him to adapt.

As I was saying earlier, he wouldn't necessarily need to stop Young early. Just slow him down with body shots and/or make him work to stay alive. He's more than capable of both.

Also I don't understand why you think Foreman is toast if Young survives the early rounds. Using that logic, Peralta should've cruised to victory twice against a green Foreman.

It quite clearly affected Foreman worse considering Foreman, not Young had to be hospitalized for heat prostration.
Foreman's reaction to the heat was amplified by his history of dehydration before bouts and coming into Puerto Rico with less than 24 hours to acclimatize to the environment.

Not only am I suggesting it, but I'm doubling down on it. Foreman's shift in body mechanics, keeping his feet to close together, and failing to put as much weight on his punches resulted in a less powerful (even if still extremely powerful) Foreman.

Not sure why you brought up the second Frazier bout. If I were you, I'd avoid it like the plague if I were trying to argue Foreman's power didn't diminish.

Frazier was absolutely shot and a blind cripple at that point. Yet Foreman took five rounds to finish him. This version of Frazier shouldn't have lasted five rounds. He shouldn't have lasted even the two rounds he did in Jamaica. Instead he became the only victim of Foreman (with the exception of the aforementioned Peralta) to make it to round 5 without having been dropped. Jamaica Foreman stops him in 1.

As I previously stated, the primary reason Foreman didn't finish was because of his new foot placement under Clancy.

I don't think Young would've survived the same attack from a more powerful Foreman and more importantly one who put more weight onto his punches.

All due respect DP, but it was objectively a close fight. Two judges had it very close. Without the foul, Young would've had to settle for an SD. It would not have taken much at all to flip this bout.

The majority of Foreman's early fights were gimmes. They had about the same amount of ring time by the time of their respective bouts (actually Young had 51 rounds to Foreman's 48) .

I've seen the reports of Young perhaps deserving the decision but without footage, they mean S.F.A

I disagree. Young is starting to become one of the more overrated fighters here.

I disagree. I tried to summarize why but to many characters so I'll just leave it at that.

 

The worst part is, it wasn't even necessary? Foreman was the number one contender.