Would Shavers always crush Norton?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Longhhorn71, May 11, 2016.


  1. Curtis Lowe

    Curtis Lowe Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,082
    342
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 19, 2006
    I was thinking the same thing, that Norton would win about 30% of the the time. The Norton that Shavers creamed was way over the hill and had a horrible game plan, backing to the ropes. A younger, more aggressive Norton using a heavy jab could trouble Shavers. Still, styles make fights a Earnie would win most matched vs Norton.
     
  2. Anubis

    Anubis Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,489
    37
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 14, 2008
    Norton-Bobick was Ken's Ali-Liston II moment, the most wildly anomalous result of Norton's entire career. Ken was one of the slowest starting prominent HWs of the Queensberry era among heavyweights with a reputation for respectable power.

    Combine Jerry Quarry's torrid 93 punch opening round pace in Frazier I with JQ's blowout of Bodell, then the fact Jimmy Ellis actually had Earnie going in a neutral corner before Harold Valan's break gave Shavers the opening he desperately needed to rescue himself and make his name with that right uppercut on Jimmy, then the combination of Jerry's granite chin and swarming attack makes the outcome of JQ-Shavers hardly surprising.
    All of George's best punches in that round were rights to the body, and it was a indeed a right to Norton's body which produced the first knockdown for the harder punching Earnie on Ken.

    For me, Norton's first round with Foreman in Caracas was akin to Bob Foster's opening stanza against Frazier, a reasonable but completely unsustainable tactic which wasn't going to get him very far.

    There's nothing in Norton's career to suggest he wouldn't undertake a feeling out process, letting the aggressive Shavers fire off first to experience just what sort of artillery Earnie carried. Checkmate. Ken did not ever demonstrate he had the kind of punch resistance to body or head to weather the opening three minutes with Shavers. It would have been like the similarly slow starting Michael Spinks surviving the first three minutes with a peaking ATG fast starter Tyson.

    Ken went to the ropes in round three with Jerry, and immediately to the ropes for virtually the whole match with Cobb, as well as backing off to the ropes at the opening bell with Shavers before Earnie started punching with serious contact. As good as Norton was countering off the ropes, it's a horrible tactic with Shavers unless possessing very serious toughness and punch resistance to both body and head, particularly when a slow starter.

    Garcia weighed 188 pounds when he knocked out a 27 year old Ken. Norton sustained around ten or 11 career knockdowns, about half of them in his early career against opponents weighing under 200. Again, please bear in mid that Ken had reached an age of full physical maturity for Garcia I, even if he had yet to attain his final evolution and potential as a competitor.

    JQ described how badly overrated his power was during Norton-Middleton, and how Ken deceived observers into overrating it. From the moment Jerry stunned Earnie until the time he dropped Shavers, he unloaded around 56 punches. It usually took a sustained attack combined with attrition from a deadly puncher to put Earnie down. (And when Jeff Sims finally did do it to Shavers with a single right in their opening round semifinal to Berbick-Ali, Earnie got up to win.)

    Would Ken have sufficient power to hurt Shavers early? I don't think that's a given. Duane Bobick was a self confessed slow starter, and Teo Stevenson had already exposed the susceptibility of his chin to a crushing right in Munich, an act John Tate would later repeat.

    Here's something else to consider. Earnie has THREE tenth round knockouts, and Ken was the ringside commentator for one of them. Shavers could tire out, but his power also remained deadly throughout a match, enough to that he could generate a knockdown at any time, as Quick Tillis discovered when a single right hand planted him on his face, seemingly out to the world for nine seconds. Like Foreman, Norton seemed to retain knockdown power for only five rounds. (He did drop Kirkman in seven after a six round attack where Ken couldn't miss, but it was nothing like the two round bowling job Foreman had previously inflicted on Boone.)

    I just don't envision a scenario where Earnie does not unload first to the slow starting Norton's body and head. To this day, Bobick admits he atypically tried roaring out the gate at the opening bell in defiance of Duane's nature as a slow starter, and left himself wide open as a consequence for the most unpredictable nature of win in Ken's entire career. (Yes, Ken would have beaten Bobick badly over multiple rounds, but Norton couldn't be predicted as a candidate to produce a 59 second shellacking like that.) Shavers-Norton would be like Tyson-Norton and Tyson-Spinks, a highly accomplished ATG fast starter against a notoriously slow starter.
     
    Saad54 and Pat M like this.
  3. clark

    clark Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,216
    17
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 15, 2005
    He did as well as he could in the first round. Norton even stated that everything Foreman threw hurt him. Foreman was just taking his time.
     
  4. BCS8

    BCS8 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    30,502
    20,887
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Aug 21, 2012
    :clap: Wow. Killer post by Anubis.
     
  5. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    34,186
    5,636
    Sportsbook:
    1,061
    Apr 30, 2006
  6. Longhhorn71

    Longhhorn71 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    12,727
    3,207
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 6, 2007
    "Norton's first round with Foreman in Caracas was akin to Bob Foster's opening stanza against Frazier, a reasonable but completely unsustainable tactic which wasn't going to get him very far."

    And Ali is yelling in the background, "Box Kenny, box"

    Re the Bobick fight: Norton hit Bobick right on the Apples Apple and almost frapped up his larynx. Bobick could hardly talk postfight.
     
  7. Anubis

    Anubis Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,489
    37
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 14, 2008
    Bob Sheridan made note of that too, that George seemed to be more patient than normal.

    If you want to see what an over eager Foreman looked like, check out the beginning of his match with Kirkman! Bottom line though is that he messed up Boone's head with that little stunt, just like he inspired Qawi to quit years later with his excruciating kidney punch which penalized George the round, but shortly helped Dwight decide to throw up his hands and walk away.

    Had Foreman and his corner made a Dempsey-Willard all or nothing type bet to stop Norton within a single round, George would have done just what Shavers and Gerry C later did. The opening round was clearly George's, and Ken actually looked his best at the outset of the second round, before Foreman hurt him.

    As slow as Foreman was, and as crude as he was, Norton's head wasn't a particularly elusive target for him. Earnie was faster, and his seldom observed boxing skills are on display with his right hand bruised in Paris for Henry Clark I. (Mostly, Shavers-Clark I is noted as Larry Merchant's broadcasting debut, with Tim Ryan on NBC. Merchant was mostly stunned into silence by Earnie's stick and move tactics though. Strange sight, like Ali stalking Blue Lewis with body hooks, but Shavers proved better at playing cutie than either Ken or George. Earnie returned to his natural form with his right hand healed for Clark II on the Ali-Norton III undercard.)

    Norton was a slow starter, not an elusive target, and not endowed with first rate punch resistance. How's he gonna beat Shavers, with his good looks? (That seems to be how way too many rate boxers, according to their measurements, and how "ripped" they are. In point of fact, plenty with muscular physiques can't take body shots very well, while there are fat and skinny bodies which can't be dented with a sledgehammer. It was Foreman, not Young, who was gassed after 12 rounds of exchanging bodyshots.)

    Bobick, from what I understand, was hit in the Adams apple during Norton's furious follow up attack after Duane was stunned by that first smacking overhand right, but I've never been able to identify which shot on the footage may have hit his throat. Regardless, Bobick's chin shouldn't have been high enough to expose his larynx like that, especially so much that a gloved fist could get through. He sounded as it he'd been chopped in the throat.
     
  8. UFC2015

    UFC2015 Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,083
    337
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Sep 12, 2015
    One big shot to the face required against Norton

    Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk
     
  9. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,348
    1,332
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Apr 26, 2015
    Norton absolutely had the power to hurt Shavers and enough to knock him out. Issues with Ernie were always two fold.....chin and stamina. Certainly he could fight as he did with Ali at a slow measured pace and go 12-15 rounds. But that's not Earnie Shavers. Shavers at his best goes all out to kill and then burns out and gets stopped himself or gets the ko win. Fighting Norton 7 out of 10 times he does what he did but the other three time Norton catches him first and gets the win.
     
  10. Anubis

    Anubis Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,489
    37
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 14, 2008
    Earnie had to punch himself out at altitude in Denver for Lyle to finally deck him for the count from exhaustion in six after Ron hit the floor himself at the end of round two. Mercado needed to get up in the third before wearing Earnie down as well in eight. And Shavers did get off the floor in the opening round to halt the deadly punching Jeff Sims in four.

    A glass jaw does not get one through five rounds on his feet with Lyle in the kind of war Earnie had with Ron (Foreman couldn't stay on his feet with Lyle that long before hitting the deck), a monster puncher like Mercado (who destroyed Berbick in one round with a single shot) for over half a dozen rounds, or stop Sims, who some were comparing to Liston at the time.

    Does Norton even survive a single round with Mercado and Sims, or through two with Lyle (who never attempted to take an opponent out in one, but has a huge dossier of second round wins).
     
  11. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,348
    1,332
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Apr 26, 2015
    I knew Mercado. He was no monster. Below average hwt.

    Sims? No chance he beats prime Norton. Sims was another below average hwt.

    Lyle was an excellent hwt contender. He had right hand power but could easily be outboxed. I could see him beating Ken but at Nortons best he stops Lyle mid fight.

    Shavers stamina and chin were always questionable. He was caught and stunned early by Quarry, Ellis and a host of others. There was a reason why Shavers fought in slow motion for most of the first 12 rounds vs Ali. Shavers was EXHAUSTED the tail end of his second bout with Young and Young would have koed Earnie if he had a punch.

    Why is it that people feel it necessary to change in their mind very well known and very well understood history?
     
  12. Vince Voltage

    Vince Voltage Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,586
    559
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 1, 2011
    I think Shavers gets harshly judged on here most of the time. He had a long, tough career. In his early years he fought ridiculously often --this is bound to result in some off nights. He proved in some fights that he could box, and we always knew he could punch. With a touch of luck, we'd be seeing him in a very different light. If you want to give a pass to all those other over-thirty guys that get passes on this site, then give one to Shavers, too. He fought for peanuts in obscurity for years. He was already past his peak when he fought Ali....and in my opinion, he still won.
     
  13. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    21,085
    414
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 17, 2009

    Agreed. It would have been a nigh on impossible task for Ken to reverse the Foreman loss. George's chin was tougher that Earnie's,for a start.
     
  14. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    21,085
    414
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jul 17, 2009


    I consider Shavers a bit of a late bloomer. Yes,his fights with Ali and Holmes came at a pretty late time in his career but his stamina was never better during that period.
     
  15. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    62,111
    9,394
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Feb 15, 2006
    I would always install Shavers as the favourite, but I think that Norton could win in some circumstances, especially if they fought multiple times.

    You have to figure that Norton would at least have a punchers chance (irony not lost on me).
     


Sign up for ESPN+ and Stream Live Sports! Advertisement