Would Usyk Be A Stylistic Nightmare For Ali?

Well that depends on how highly you rate Joshua and Fury despite their size i wouldn't call either a great. Joshua has not beaten a single ranked fighter for 5 years and Fury has struggled in alot of fights and has a paper thin resume. Whilst i'm not disagreeing that Usyk could be classed as a ATG Heavyweight in regards to H2H ability, but rating him as a top 10 Heavyweight of all time is a totally different thing and he's certainly not a top 10 Heavyweight of all time for me.

No one was comparing Patterson to Usyk i was saying Patterson is considered a greater Heavyweight than Joshua and is rated higher in all time rankings. Someone made a claim that Usyk has definitely beaten better Heavyweights than Ali did during his reign and i disagree, so i made an example of saying Liston is greater than Fury and Patterson is greater than Joshua. Too much emphasis is put on size and you can't compare different eras in Heavyweight division, because Heavyweights were smaller on average from years ago so you look at the context of how highly rated that particular Heavyweight is rated.

I also don't think most neutral fans would consider Vitali a great Heavyweight, he's rated high in regards to H2H because he's never been behind on points in any of his fights and he dominated most of his opposition even if they wern't stand out opposition. But in regards to his resume i don't think Vitali is considered a great he falls into the very good category whilst being highly rated in regards to H2H ability.

Well that's because in the black/white era there wasn't a Cruiserweight division so you can't really compare eras like that. People like to use the Cruiserweight argument but again where would Breidis, Gassiev, rank amongst the top Heavyweights of previous years ?

Yes but that also works both ways alot of fans also fall prey to recent bias, i've seen fans thinking Zhang would stop Ali just because he beat Joyce. I've seen fans rank Joyce as the next coming of George Foreman.

I've already said Usyk is an ATG based on all his achievements and H2H rates pretty highly i don't see what else i can really say i think that's a pretty reasonable take.

 

This is a false statement. He fought all types of fighters in that time. Tall rangy fighters, great boxer punchers, swarmer types, lefties. Not sure u can have a more diverse group of guys then Liston, Terrell, Williams,Patterson, Milldenberger, Folley, Cooper, London, Chuvalo.

 

I wouldn't call any of them great when he fought them, they were either past their best or mediocre guys and Ali was also bigger then all of them with the exception of Terrell who was slow as hell. Not really an impressive line up.

 

Terrell is an often forgotten contender who was a damn good boxer. He wasn’t slow and he was prime. Some of them were past best some ok but it’s not a terrible line up. Compare that run to anyone’s and you’ll find it’s not a bad line up. Certainly blows away the contenders Holmes or Wlad faced or Louis in some of his runs.

 

Terrell was not good he was robotic as hell and only won by relying on his size when he fought people his size he lost and if you watched the fight against Ali he looked awful like he had no idea what he was doing. Its not a terrible line up but it doesn't compare to who he fought in the 70s and I wouldn't say it was substantially better then who Holmes or Wlad fought tbh.

 

First things first I must apologize and say that most of my comment actually wasn't directed at you. I think the first part was and then I got annoyed reading other posts and went on a bit of a general screed, probably should have made a separate comment. Ditto with the Floyd Patterson mention. I didn't even know you brought him up I just used him as an example off the top of my head of someone I see often in these discussions. I think we agree on most things. You said "I've already said Usyk is an ATG based on all his achievements and H2H rates pretty highly i don't see what else i can really say i think that's a pretty reasonable take" and yeah you're right lol, you literally can't say anymore cuz for the most part i'm bringing up things you didn't even mention. My bad.

With that in mind:

I don't think Usyk is a top 10 all time heavyweight either from a ranking standpoint. Granted I don't care about padding at all, but I do think he'd need at least 5 more top ten wins to get there, which he probably won't due to retirement. His resume whilst having top tier wins that are better than most other heavies is just a bit thin to me, hence the distinction between H2H ATG and ATG ranking.

"Well that depends on how highly you rate Joshua and Fury despite their size i wouldn't call either a great".

That's the thing; Heavyweight is, has always been and will probably continue to be schite from a talent perspective relative to other weight classes, so the opportunity to beat other greats isn't really there all that often. How many ATG heavyweights, are ATG heavyweights, because they beat other prime, H2H, ATG career heavyweights? Absolute max, 3 of em? All of whom were from the same era mind in the 70's in Ali, Foreman and Frazier, but in my opinion that's not even true because Ali wasn't in his prime when Frazier beat him and Frazier wasn't even in his prime by the time Foreman fought him. So in all of heavyweight history only Ali has ever beaten another prime, H2H ATG heavyweight in their prime and he only did it once in Foreman. Marciano, Louis, Tyson, Wlad, Lewis, Holmes, Holyfield,and Foreman don't fit that description, and if they don't need to fit that description to be great then Usyk shouldn't have to either.

"Well that's because in the black/white era there wasn't a Cruiserweight division so you can't really compare eras like that. People like to use the Cruiserweight argument but again where would Breidis, Gassiev, rank amongst the top Heavyweights of previous years?"

From a career perspective this makes sense. From a H2H perspective, people say that the 185lbs Marciano is a great heavyweight because he beat other 185lbs-ish men at a time when they were called Heavyweights, and then extrapolate THAT in order to gauge his performance against 220lbs+ men. These same people then look at the 210lbs-220lbs Usyk beating men in that weight range and GO "UM ACHTUALLY THAT MEANS NOTHING CUZ CRUISERWEIGHT" and pretend like 99% of heavyweights frequently used in H2H matchups aren't within that weight range lol. That's an objective failure in logic that people who aren't comfortable enough in their positions use as a way to avoid talking about the topic entirely.

 

Fair enough buddy you make some good points I'm going to end the convo here because I'm a bit tired of this subject now no offence to you intended it's just I've debated this subject quite alot today and my brain needs a rest from it now haha.

But nice to share some thoughts with you as always.

 

Usyk would be a stylistic nightmary for anybody period.

 

I too have Usyk fatigue lol. Usyk and Joe Frazier fatigue to be specific.

And likewise! As always I appreciate our level headed and fruitful discussion ^_^

 

He was not the Greatest for nothing.

 

Terrell has better wins then most contenders and his results speak for themselves,,,he was boring as heck but he was successful.

 

I dont get this whole "Ali opposition was better/worse than XXX" controversy.

A man can only fight what is available in his era. Discouting Ali or any vintage ATG just because not everybody was a giant in the 70s is absurd.

The real issue is: did he fight the best AVAILABLE opposition in his era? Did he actively ducked somebody?

That is one key reason why Ali is considered the GOAT by many: because he fought all comers or almost.

That is also one reason why Holmes or Patterson cant be considered the GOAT: because for whatever reason they didnt take all comers.

IMO if Usyk is able to stay at the top for a couple of year actively facing and beating the best ranked challengers, then he would make a serious case to be considered a Top 10 ATG HW.

 

Against smaller fighters sure put him into an era with fighters his size and he wouldn't be as successful

 

If they were comparable to giants of prior eras I would expect plenty of smaller men to beat them with ease. I wouldn't expect Carnera or Willard to be much of a challenge for Beterbiev or Bivol.

 

U don’t know that at all. Pure speculation