Would you back Larry Holmes to beat all four of Lennox, Bowe, and the Klits?

lewis would beat holmes.holmes would beat bowe.don't know or care about the klits

 

Tate was a co-champion and so was Dokes, Page and Coetzee,Thomas and an improved Mike Weaver. I wanted to see a unification to prove dominance but Larry was content to fight guys with 10 fights, 10-2-2 and 13-14-15 fights.

I favored Larry over these guys but could not be sure. Dokes had fast hands,good jab a good hook and a decent enough right, it would be an interesting money fight.

Page was hot and cold but had the style to upset Holmes because of speed and decent power but Larry gave up a tittle not to fight him.

I think Coetzee had a punchers chance and so did Thomas who also had a great jab and a Weaver fight would have been a good match because Weaver improved his confidence and won a title from the undefeated John Tate.

Holmes was the most consistent of his era but very connected and there is proof that some of his opponents like Tom Prater had paid for ranking by Don King.

I do not blame Holmes for all of these avoidance's but I would think he would have tried to unify.

I think Larry was a great fighter but when I hear fans pick hairs on other greats and overlook never rematching Norton,Weaver,Williams and Witherspoon (all who were very beatable) and never unified against Coetzee,Page,Weaver,Thomas,Tate,Dokes I have to say lets compare apples to apples. Holmes should catch a pass for some of those mentioned but I cant give him a pass for all 9 avoidance's

As far as Earnie Shaver he was a hard puncher but he is known for his losses, he unloaded his best on Ron Stander but folded. He unloaded his best on Jerry Quarry but folded. Roy Williams could not even KO Richard Dunn who was KO'd 10 times out of his 11 loses (Williams lost a 10 RD nod to Dunn) so I don't give him big props for that. Earnie dropped Lyle who got up to KO Shavers.

also Shavers fought Ali and Holmes in 1978-79 then the rematch with Holmes in 1979, 6 months later Shaver dropped the ordinary Bernardo Mercado in the 3rd but Mercado got up to KO Shavers in 7


Shavers was KO'd by Ron Stander in 1970
Shavers was KO in one by Quarry in 1 rd in 1973
Shavers was beaten by 20-25 Bob Stalling in 1974 taking a 9 count in 9th
Shavers was KO'd by Ron Lyle in 1975 after dropping Lyle

Shavers w10 over Vincente Rondon, Shavers could not stop a man who was KO'd by middleweight Benny Briscoe 8 and Jose Gonzales in 8 and Light Heavyweight Champ Bob Foster in 2

I am not saying Earnie could not hit but I am saying something was missing on his follow-up or finishing skills.

Earnies KO over Ken Norton was classic but Norton was Ko'd before and after and had a vulnerability to punchers.

Witherspoon could punch but his only KO'd were to guys who were glass-chinned, Ekland,Gonzales,Bruno

Weaver staggered Holmes a few times but Weaver was a 19-8 trail-horse who improved greatly after the Holmes fight and Gained a title.

Like I said I am not holding Holmes responsible for all these misses but he has to be accountable for some of these.

I think Larry Holmes was a great fighter but I can not be blind to the proper perspective. IMO

 

I'll confess that some of Bummy's criticisms are valid, but the career of an all time great champion should not be summed up on the sole basis of never taking matches that simply COULDN'T be made. It's a fair observation that Holmes never fought Greg Page and was rightfully stripped of the title.. It might even be appropriate to say that a match with Pinklon Thomas was in order ( though not as necessary as Page. ) There is no justification however, for holding Holmes responsible for fights that never materialized with Ceotzee, Dokes, or Tate. Those matches were unmakable and most people ( including Bummy ) know it....

 

Bummy, you can make the same arguments about any fighter ... you love Marciano as do I and many others .. from Johnson to Dempsey to Louis to Ali we can use the same disection to discount anyone's opposition.

 

Not sure about ''glass chinned'' Bruno.

 

Yeah i'm pretty sure he would. just because Holmes proved he was a better champion then all of them

 

Style wise I would Pick Larry to win against V.klitshcko and Bowe.
I would pick Lewis over him but only if Lewis don't get stupid and try to slug it out with Larry. And Wlad - Larry - i lean towards Wlad but this is good match up.

 

Happens ALL THE TIME right after boxer is retired.

 

Either they know it and spin anyway to try and throw darts to the uneducated or they are clueless ... any student of that era knows that Page, Tubbs, Coetzee, Thomas and Dokes were all inconsistant talents . Combined they had next to no box office draw. None managed any serious level of dominance. They all kept losing. In addition, Holmes did fight many of ther men that beat these men. Holmes dominated Berbick who manhandled the undefeated Page and took Thomas' title. Holmes flattened Bey who later defeated Page and eliminated him from title consideration. Holmes beat Witherspoon who beat Page and Tubbs. Holmes KO'ed Weaver who KO'ed Coetzee and drew with Dokes after a ridiculous title loss. Other than defeat a coked up Dokes Coetzee did nothing. He lost to Thomas. He was KO'ed by Weaver. He was KO'ed by Page. After winning the title Dokes became a druggie and pissed his prime career years away. My point is that not one of these guys ever established himself as a legit threat and a box office draw. That's the facts.

 

Very true, although I can't argue against anyone that Page was the WBC mandatory contender in 1983 and should have gotten a title shot, but asside from him, the others have very weak cases. From the time Muhammad Ali vacated the WBA title in 1978 to the time Tyson captured it in 1987, it changed hands on something like 9 occasions in 8 years, with it's holders only providing a combined 3 successful title defenses, and one of those included Doke's draw with Weaver.. The fact is, those guys couldn't stay on top long enough for a unification match to materialize, and let's face it, rarely do unifications take place within 3 months of a man acquiring a belt. Some of these guys think that Tate should have fought Holmes before even leaving the arena after beating Coetzee. Reality is obviously a bit more complicated than that. They also ***** about the fact that he didn't give an instant rematch to every guy who showed so much as a heart beat against him... Okay, so maybe Spoon and Weaver could have gotten a second chance, but didn't... Doesn't mean that I'm about to drop the guy 5 places in the all time ratings because of it...

 

Page was completely embarrassed in June 82 by Trevor Berbick in front of a worldwide audience on the undercard of Holmes/Cooney. His bubble was completely burst. He went on to lose twice in 84. In the eighteen month gap between he did absolutely nothing to make him a marketable opponent for Larry Holmes. By that time Holmes could not care less about alphabet politics and only cared about the smartest deals. Technically you have a point but under closer examination, when you factor for all the under handed dealings and behind the scenes b.s. I find zero fault for Holmes not fighting page. In addition if Berbick, Witherspoon and Bey beat him I doubt Holmes would have had trouble either.

 

True,

It was very difficult to discern who was calling the shots from 1979-1987 Don King owned about 60% of the heavyweight division, while Bob Arum owned the other 40%... Both men hated each other, did not want to relinquish their control to the other man, and all the sanctioning bodies were in their back pockets pressed against their fat ( and growing ) asses. Furthermore, when Holmes broke free of Don King in 1983 to independently promote his own fights, it complicated matters more extensively. Who the hell knows? The 1980's heavyweight scene is probably the most mysterious in boxing history, and in 100 years, there may not be a single expert around who can break it apart and make any sense of it. One thing is for certain, and that is, for anyone who is a Tyson hater, well at least his brief dominance brought some clarity to the division, and frankly I think Don King knew what he had to do by that point.. He tried his isolation tactics for the better part of a decade, and the deceptiveness wasn't working in the eyes of the public.... Fight fans wanted to see a solid figure in the heavyweight picture, without the confusion of multiple champions....

 

Only Cooney was a box-office draw of Holmes opponents and Spinks, Coetzee,Dokes,Page<Weaver,Thomas,Tate would have been more of a draw than David Bey, who lost 14 of his next 18 fights after Holmes I think Leon Spinks 10-2-2 and KO'd in 1 rd by Coetzee had a name and his brother Michael and Ken Norton who he did not rematch but only the inner-core fan knew of any of Holmes opponents, most of them were dug up by King or also controlled by him and his paid puppet ABC groups and judges

again I don't blame Larry for all but he had to know unifying would have been best for him money-wise and money was what Larry loved, yet he never unified...Both Klitschko's have sought the other titles bogus as the titles may be...Haye ran from both brothers and the biggest payday of his career and Don King made Valuev turn down his biggest payday I do not consider the title valid that Haye has now because he does not want to risk a unification

 

Holmes would have his hands full with all of them. They all offer different things that would give Holmes problems.

 

You also have to factor in the attrition and wear and tear factor of fighting 4 guys like that. Tough fights. The wear and tear is an awful lot more than fighting the likes of Bey and Rodriguez and numerous others Larry fought. He had minimal wear and tear but enough so that a Mike Spinks could beat him eventually. And Spinks fighting an 1980 version of Holmes has no chance. Fighting that level of competition leads to defeats because guys simply don't stay at peak all that long. As it was, Holmes really wasn't at the top of his game anymore prior to the Cooney match. He'd need to be at the top to go through those 4 fights.