Would you favour any other HW in history to run Usyk's pro gauntlet 25-0?

Botha and Bruno were solid wins; yeah, he went right off a cliff after prison. I'd say the post-prison version of Tyson that beat Bruno would've knocked out Whyte and Wilder as well. I suppose it depends on how highly you rate him.

I think Usyk is going to carry on until he inevitably loses to someone like Itauma. I don't think he is interested in bowing out undefeated. I think he will continue testing himself as long as he thinks he is number one. Which, at the moment, he is, by quite some distance. However, I will say that a loss does not do a disservice to him, either, not in my opinion. He is already great, regardless of how the rest of his career unfolds. I just don't think he's anywhere near the greatest HWs of all time, not with less than 30 fights under his belt. Once he retires, I think the dust will settle and people will acknowledge that he is a legend and a great, but just slightly below the pantheon of greats at HW.

 

I see no reason Ali, Louis, Lewis or Liston couldn't run through all that opposition. Besides them a lot of hard maybes including Holyfield.

 

I didn't say it is superior, I said they are comparable, which they are. They both have two wins against A-grade heavyweights. Ike has Tua and Byrd, who were both undefeated at the time and at the peak of their careers, which gives the wins added weight. Usyk has Fury and Joshua. Joshua barely scrapes in there, too, especially post-Ruiz. Fury had also spent three years down the pub before he fought Usyk, so he was on the slide too, not to mention he was coming off ten of the most embarrassing rounds in heavyweight history against Ngannou.

Dubois is not an elite fighter; he is a Euro-level fighter. He made Joe Joyce look like Larry Holmes, and then walked chin-first into a haymaker in the 2nd Usyk fight. If he hadn't headbutted Hrgovic into oblivion, he would never have gotten that 2nd Usyk shot. He will be quickly forgotten in HW history if we fast-forward the clock a decade or two, I'm sure of it. He would've been obliterated by the greats in any other era, too, as I mentioned in the other thread. B-rate at best.

I'm referring to Usyk at HW - he's being grossly overrated. As an amateur, he is one of the greats, and except for Holyfield, I think he is the greatest cruiserweight of all time, so I wouldn't call that an ideological block. I have him #2 P4P behind Crawford and a top 15 HW of all time. I just think the idea that he is alongside the likes of Lennox, Ali, and Louis is outrageous when half of his HW resume consists of Daniel Dubois and Anthony Joshua.

 

I'm the OG super-fan of Usyk on here and yet I'm capable of being perfectly honest: none of his opponents at heavyweight are that great historically. You don't think Muhammad Ali could beat the likes of Fury, Dubois and Joshua? Because what, he lost to Frazier and Norton? You don't actually think any of Usyk's three British rivals at heavyweight were any better than Joe Frazier, do you? Wanna talk about cloud-cuckoo-land...

 

I don't think you understand: Usyk is the only excellent HW there's been since prime Wlad.

Fury, Dubois and Joshua kind of all suck compared with past HW greats.

It isn't Usyk's fault at all, but he doesn't have any great wins at HW because there aren't any available. He has cleaned out what there is, which is wonderful, and all he can do really...but let's stop short of overinflating mere "pretty good" victories over super heavies with B level skillsets.

 

Botha was garbage off the roids, and Bruno had already been kncoked out by Tyson previously, as well as Bonecrusher and Witherspoon, but as you like. The point stands that Tyson and Bowe hardly stand head and shoulders above Fury and Joshua.

 

The argument can be made. I didn't once say it was definitely better; they're equal if anything. 2 A-grade wins each, so if that's the basis for the argument, there's not much in it. I don't think there is. I'm definitely not buying into this fallacy that Usyk is an indestructible machine because he beat all these B-rate Brits. I'm just saying it to highlight just how overrated Usyk's HW run is getting. Putting him 3rd behind Louis and Ali is absurd, and Usyk would probably say that himself.

Okay, so ranking someone #2 P4P, the 2nd greatest cruiser of all time, and a top 10-15 HW of all time is not proper credit? I'd argue that you have blinkers on, and any legitimate criticism of Usyk's heavyweight resume is something you won't even consider.

 

M. Tyson, I feel would have gone 25-0.