Would You Give Frank Bruno A Chance, Against Wlad Klitschko??

Well i think it's pretty logical to assume a hard hitting quick handed skilled Southpaw Heavyweight, who is 6'4 230+ pounds would be a pretty dangerous opponent for most don't you think ? Southpaw Heavyweight's are a rare breed especially with the combination of blazing speed Sanders had along with his power, not even Usyk has those 2 qualities although he's better boxer than Sanders.

Again your not understanding the point i'm making, Wladimir lost to Puritty when he was green correct ? i'm pitting an early green version of Bruno vs Puritty say like the Bruno who lost to Bonecrusher.

Another factor is Wladimir fought Puritty over 12 round distance, Bruno has stamina issues and only went 12 rounds once vs McCall, who he hugged to death to survive Bruno didn't know how to clinch to survive in 1984.

Puritty is extremely durable he took punches from the likes of Morrison, Wladimir, without being dropped. The fact that he beat Wladimir and dropped Morrison x2 to earn a draw, aswell as having solid wins over Hipp, Gonzalez. Means that when he was on his game he could be a solid fighter.

Your looking at his record and basing your opinion on that without any substance, Puritty had no Amateur career and was thrown to the wolves. Yes he was fairly limited skill wise but he had one of the best chins in Heavyweight division, and like Jesse Ferguson another journeyman he could spring the odd upset performance. And his performances against Morrison, Wladimir, shows he was no push over.

Could i see an extremely green Bruno punching himself out over 12 rounds vs an extremely durable journeyman who beat Wladimir the same way ? and came within a whisker of beating Morrison ? absolutely yes. Bruno would be the favourite of course to earn a decision win, but an 84 green version of Bruno vs the same Puritty who beat Wladimir ? i wouldn't be so confident.

Run the gauntlet against who ? he's not beating Fury, Usyk, Wilder. And there's plenty of other banana skins who could trip up Bruno. You keep saying this but again i ask which top fighter is Bruno beating in this era ? because he didn't beat any of top fighters in his own era.

I'm confused with what your saying honestly can you elaborate when you say "he would run the gauntlet" but "he might not win during the run" because i'm not sure what your saying.

Well anytime Bruno gets hurt he's like a deer in the headlights and freezes up.

Both can be vulnerable to power but i think a more experienced Wladimir had better survival instincts than Bruno, also the fact that Wladimir is a better fighter and stopped a handful of world class fighters. Bruno only stopped 1 ranked top 10 opponent which was faded Coetzee, so i tend to think Wladimir would be the favourite in this fight in the region of 70/30 in my view.

There's a slight difference though Puritty, Brewster, are extremely durable fighters who took alot of punishment. They basically soaked up punishment and made Wladimir punch himself out, Bruno is not the most durable fighter so he can't replicate those performances. And Sanders had blazing hand speed and the Southpaw stance, again Bruno can't replicate that as he has none of those qualities.

 

And, I am saying that the assumption is only made valid because of what happened to Wlad, which has led to a case of circular reasoning. That is, you claim “

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”, despite him never having demonstrated this at world level, until he walked through Wlad.

Not only this, but Sanders was a 37-year-old borderline retiree, whose closest tilt at world level had been against a then unrated Rahman, to whom he lost - three years prior. Indeed, Sanders went into retirement after that bout and instead worked on lowering his golf handicap. Against Wlad, Sanders was the 20-1 underdog at the bookmakers - Huge odds that equate to him having had no chance of winning.

Sanders was what he was. He had never achieved anything like that at world level before, was not expected to do so and did not do so again afterwards. He achieved what he did largely, in part, due to Wlad being vulnerable to an aggressive power puncher.

Errrr - No. I understood you just fine, thanks. I addressed your mention of “green” in this post:

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Ironically, you seem to have completely missed the main thrust of what I wrote in my previous post, so I will make it plain again here:

“

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”,

And, related to the above point:

“

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I hope this is now cleared up.

You can sing the praises of Ross Puritty all you want. That’s fine by me.

Although, I do find it noteworthy that you are keen to force a comparison between Wlad/Puritty and Bruno/Smith to attempt an equivalence in ‘extreme greenness’ and, at the same time, you draw on a critical view of a past-prime, 30lbs heavier, last-chance-saloon Bruno, in his 12-round effort against McCall.

You should bear in mind also that Bruno had not competed in a scheduled 12-Rounder by the time he met Smith and wouldn’t for another year and a half or so, until he challenged for the European Championship. Conversely, Wlad had been training for a few 12-round bouts since challenging and winning the WBC International Championship, before meeting Puritty.

No disrespect, but yours does look a little like a cherry-picked argument, to be honest.

OK... ...It was you yourself who introduced the idiom into the discussion. Maybe your idea of what it means is different to mine - but what I have written in reference to 'running the gauntlet' is in plain English, in line with what this figurative expression means and should not be confusing.

In the scheme of things, it's not important - but might I suggest that, if you are unsure of what the idiom means and how it might be applied in a sporting context, that you look it up?

Having better survival instincts is no guarantee of actual survival and a pissing contest over numbers doesn’t change the fact that both of them had potentially game-changing power and exposed vulnerabilities, if tagged.

I have not suggested that Bruno could (or would need to) “replicate those performances” but I think you underestimate Bruno’s durability, nonetheless.

I would recommend you watch/rewatch Witherspoon/Bruno.

Anyway - I’d say this chat has run its course and been exhausted, so I think I’ll call it day now. Thanks.

 

@Man_Machine I had to quote you like this as there was too many characters.

Regarding eye test Sanders always looked dangerous, and he had the uniqueness about him being 6'4 skilled Southpaw with blazing handspeed and power, that's pretty much unheard of in the Heavyweight division. Can you think of another Heavyweight that had all them attributes ? because i can't.

Yes Sanders didn't have many top level wins, but he beat plenty of B level fighters impressively. And he destroyed Wladimir and put up and very galiant effort vs Vitali whilst being out of shape.

Overall regarding eye test Sanders looked dangerous/impressive lets agree on that.

The reason why i brought it up is because you brought up those losses, yet i don't think either of those losses is very relevant to how a match up with Bruno goes.

As i stated Puritty was early in Wladimir's career, and Bruno at the same stage could've lost to Puritty aswell. Wladimir punched himself out vs Brewster, Puritty, after both fighters took alot of punishment. Bruno cannot employ that style of taking 2 to land 1 to make Wladimir punch himself out, and the Sanders loss was due to Southpaw stance and blazing hand speed which Bruno doesn't have either.

Also these losses were pre prime Wladimir correct ? i assume we're matching both fighters at their best. So regarding styles of how those 3 fighters beat Wladimir isn't relevant to Bruno's style, also the fact that this was before Wladimir joined Emmanuel Steward, and he improved as a fighter just like Lennox Lewis did which has to be taken into account.

Wladimir had 24 fights going into Puritty fight but had only gone 8 rounds once, Bruno had 21 fights and had only gone 7 rounds once, and was also in line for a title shot vs Larry Holmes had he beat Bonecrusher who was unknown at the time. I think it's a pretty fair comparison both fighters were green regarding being taken into deep waters.

The McCall fight is relevant because at that time, Bruno had learnt to hold on and clinch which helped him survive the later rounds vs McCall. Something he didn't know how to do vs Bonecrusher, when he froze up like a deer in the headlights when he was in trouble.

Well my version of it is that running gauntlet, means that Bruno would clean house in this era beating every worthwhile opponent. That's why i was confused if you were suggesting that, again i am fairly young so if i've made a mistake regarding that expression then i stand corrected, but that's the point i was trying to get across if you understand what i mean now.

Agreed but i still think Wladimir is the better overall fighter with KO power in either hand, that's why i think he's rightly the favourite in this match up.

But those losses as i said 2 of them were due to opponents willing to take alot of punishment vs Wladimir, and the other who had a unique style for Heavyweight. And the fact that it was pre prime Wladimir, i don't think it's very relevant to a match up with Bruno in all honesty as i said.

As for Witherspoon/Bruno i remember it being decent fight, but fought in a one gear type of way with neither man really lifting the pace. I don't remember any massive punches Bruno took though until the 11th round, when they both exchanged right hands which Bruno got the worst off. And again as i said in a previous post at this point in Witherspoon's career he was lazy/uninterested due to getting shafted by Don King, which you can clearly see his lack of motivation for the sport after his non effort vs Bonecrusher in his very next fight.

Yeah i agree this has turned into a bit of slog of a debate TBH no offence to you who's knowledge i respect, but i would like to say one last thing so we can end this on a decent note.

I think overall Bruno does have a decent chance in this fight, especially if it's the Bruno who fought Lewis. But my issue is Bruno mostly always came up short, and seemed to lacking certain attributes to me which stopped him going to the next level.

If i can agree to disagree with you i would say yes Bruno has a chance in this fight, but i don't agree with you that it's 50/50 fight. For me Wladimir is a clear favourite being the superior fighter overall in my view.

And yeah that's all i've got to say good day to you aswell.

 

Some good long deep debates between DP and MM of late. Hats off to some great points from both sides.

 

I been having some back and forths lately with some of the OG members @Man_Machine @My dinner with Conteh i don't know if i've wound them up a bit, because i been disagreeing with them lately on a few subjects but that's certainly not my intention.

If i'm being honest in this debate with @Man_Machine i feel like at times, i'm not quite on the same level as he is intellectually. And at times i struggle to keep up with him being the young guy with not quite as much wisdom, but i try and hold my own in the debates and make a good case.

 

Debating the likes of quality guys like them is a sure way to step your game up. Knowing both i'm sure they are taking it just fine. Not like there's been any rudeness that I've seen. You've made plenty of solid points as has MM and it's certainly not just one way traffic.

It's like the old days, we used to go back and forth forever as each jockeyed for position hahaha. These debates were common way back. It's how everyone learnt, by taking in various positions and seeing what they liked and agreed with.

 

No hard feelings from my side. All fun to me.

Actually, with me taking the dissenting position in this debate, the challenge is for me to come up with anything like a viable argument to support a case. This generally goes against the thinking of the consensus and can be frustrating as hell for those I am debating against (as well as any observers, no doubt)

 

Wlad was bette than Bruno in every way and much quicker, he would have stopped Frank early, Frank had power but his punches were pretty easy to see coming.

 

Not wound up at all mate, we're mostly here for debate aren't we, otherwise what's the point? The Hide/Mason match-up is a good one and it's a tough pick (although I've noticed you're still going on about stuff that didn't happen with another poster now, and still totally overrating Mason's performance vs Lewis ). Whereas, with this one, I've said my piece on the Wlad-Frank match-up and that's all there is to comment, i've nothing further to add, and, truth be told, I wouldn't bet a carrot on Bruno in a head-to-head match-up with anyone on Wlad's level. Just one of those fighters who I could never really envisage being upright at the end of a world title fight- and good for Frank, he proved me wrong...once.

I agree with your 10-8 round for Frazier in round 11 too, by the way. Good call.

 

More or less my view. This is like trying to argue Bruno beats Ali on the basis that Ali got dumped on his ass by little Cooper and that Bruno hit much harder than Cooper. Frank Bruno is a smaller, stiffer fighter than Wlad and in my opinion had a worse jab and worse variety of punches too. Wlad before the Steward era was viewed as an offensive monster, and that the only guy that could stop him was Lewis. The fact that this version of Wlad would exchange gives Bruno some chances, but in no way is this 50-50.

 

Yeah someone quoted me again on the Mason/Hide thread so I ended getting back into that debate. I think in future when I can see a debate has been long over drawn I'll just move on in future like that one certainly has.

 

The only thing that would bother Wlad was Bruno`s just because his reach wa two inches longer than Wlad`s.