Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BlackCloud, May 25, 2021.
Some even before the 5th!
But here's the problem, Ali and Young were not hit by guys like Lewis, Wlad, Tyson, Morrison etc, therefore how can they compare ?!
Furthermore, in Ali's case, Foreman did not manage to land on him the way Shavers did.
I said I think other HWs hit harder. And my point about his punching technique is that he went all out, which great boxers generally don't do unless they have their opponent hurt. They usually try to keep their punches short.
My point being that if someone like Wlad, Lewis or Foreman swung the way Shavers did, they would generate more power.
I don't know if someone his size could hit harder, but I think bigger guys than him could hit harder.
But to be honest there are quite a few posters fixated on Muhammad Ali getting floored by Henry Cooper on June 18 1963, and against Sonny Banks in 1962, his pre title days, forgetting that he got up to win. Nobody talks about Ali vs Cooper II on May 21 1966, no knockdown in that fight, just 14 stitches to Cooper's eyebrow, but if you bring up Mike Tyson not getting up from the canvas against James Buster Douglas on Feb 11 1990, loads of excuses will overtake this site, double standards.
No, but he wasn't properly prepared either. Plus he had the shoulder injury and was older than stated.
I still favor Ali to win though due to his speed. I just don't see Liston connecting with big punches. But if he ever did, man, Ali would be praying to Allah.
Cause there are some major differences:
1. Douglas weighed 231 pounds, Cooper weighed 185 pounds.
2. Douglas pounded on Tyson all night and brought him down with a 4 punch combo, Cooper floored Ali with just 1 punch
3. Ali was properly prepared for Cooper, Tyson wasn't for Douglas.
You are all over them Rich!
I knew the excuses were coming, were his shoes too big?. Just say it, you do not like Ali. Was Tyson not being in shape anyone's fault?, I think it was his own. If there is going to be bad name calling, then it is time for my favorite button to be pushed, it is called Ignore. I do not engage with youngsters. Excuses are like people's behinds, everyone has one. No one is man enough to find fault in their own actions. Remember life itself is a choice, very few are mature enough to realize that.
Properly prepared or not he landed some bombs and Ali shrugged them off most certainly without praying to Allah. Ali shrugged heaps of punches off from heaps of ATG punchers. It's all on film and any poster worth their salt in here knows it.
Who do I think would/could stop Ali?
Well, it isn't going to be a big, strong monster puncher. If you are going to stop Ali, it will certainly require some extra pop in your punch. More than that, it would take a guy with quickness of hand and foot that would surprise Ali at the appropriate time. It would also require the intelligence to put Ali in a position to hit him when he didn't think that he could be hit.
I am not a big Ali fan, I think that he is the third most overrated fighter of all time. He is very much a product of his own propaganda campaign and a weak weight class. ( a great heavyweight, skill wise, is a mediocre welterweight. A guy like Ali would cut no ass at 47) But I have a lot of respect for Ali and his will to win, his willingness to endure. Once he learned that really showed.
This will get a lot of you into a dither but it is more likely to stop pre 67 Ali than post. Because young Ali didn't think that he could be hurt and he didn't hold on and he fought instinctively. Joe Frazier and time taught Ali the truth.
So...the two fighters I would pick to stop young Ali are Joe Louis and Mike Tyson.
You will throw the Conn fight at me in the case of Louis. But Ali was not as fast as Conn; Billy was a fast welter and middle and 30 pounds lighter than Ali. Next, Conn was smarter in the ring. With no amateur experience he fought Zivic and Yarosz and Krieger and Apostoli, while the gold medalist fought...
You would have to come at me with details, not hyperbole to make me believe that Ali would more capably avoid Louis than did Conn. I mean, it is pretty simple. Ali moved to his left behind his jab, he didn't fight going to his right.
Eddie Futch thought that Louis would stop Ali. I think that he would beat Ali but I wouldn't bet the under.
Tyson would stop young Ali but I don't think that he would do as well with the Ali that had learned to tie up and grab. This goes back to the hand and foot speed.
Ali, in 1967, may well have been faster of hand and foot than a peak Mike Tyson. But not by a whole bunch and Ali moved much more broadly on his feet and threw longer punches than Tyson. Everything that Mike did was much more compact. And Tyson had been taught how to use shifts and he used them to extend his reach.
In my mind I picture Ali sliding away, left or right or leaning back, hands down in any case. Confident that he was faster than the other guy. But the other guy has fast feet, too, and catches him on the chin with something that Ali doesn't see coming.
And Ali sometimes got into his own world and didn't think about what the other guy was doing. He just assumed that he would be okay.
Smart, and sensible .... keep well.
One guy that comes to mind is Mike Tyson. I don't know that I would bet on it, depends what the odds were. Mike matches up well with Ali physically. His speed was better than most if not all other sluggers.
Ali would be shocked early by Tyson's attack. Explosive quickness. Muhammad would have to take some blows until he adjusted to what Mike was doing.
He couldn't afford to take too many clean ones.
I got Ali , Willie Pep , Pernel whitaker and Sugar Ray Leonard as my four most overrated. I agree but Sam Langford was very similiar to Joe Louis and had the power too, Dempsey also was able to drop guys from the clinch. I can see those 2 stopping Ali as well,Muhammad played games in the clinch and against boxers who can knock you out from there (Joe louis, Sam Langford, Jack dempsey, even rocky Marciano thats the end of Ali.)
Liston landed no bombs whatsoever, at least not the type of bombs I'm referring too. Had he done done, Ali would have went down.
Or like I already asked on another thread, do you think Cooper hit harder than Liston ?
*street-fighter victory music plays*
Who are the two you have as more overrated then Ali?
Okay, now this one is a little silly wise old sage but I think Valuev beats 70s Foreman thoughts?
I think he is too durable and strong with good power also for a 150kg 7ft2 guy he had good stamina and could I envision him outlasting and manhandling Foreman at close range pretty much making his shoving and hand wrestling useless. I think Nikolia just absorbs his shots not offering a ton of resistance just steady work but not taking a whole lot of real punishment then taking over for a stoppage when he stops sleepwalking in the eighth or ninth when Foreman tires.