Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by JackSilver, Oct 10, 2021.
Too many questions about the Ali fights imo.
Wilder's "reign" and title defenses is more Tommy Burns than Muhammad Ali. Let's see Wilder in against Joshua, Usyk, or Whyte before giving him a proper evaluation and same with Fury for that matter. And while Fury may not have been knocked out, he was down 4 times in 36 rounds. Honestly speaking, a different referee in the first fight and it's a 12th round KO win for Wilder.
The larger point here is that our evaluation of Fury and Wilder can dramatically change if this time next year Fury and Wilder both go on to lose one sided KO losses against their very next opponent.
That's true, but I'm trying to be open minded. The whole "Liston is older than stated" is just absurd argument though and it gives us no difference on this matter.
Ali’s first reign wasn’t even that good. Worse than Wilder’s reign considering Wilder had two wins over Ortiz and a draw w Fury. I don’t count Liston II for much. His second reign was better, but still not leagues better than Wilder’s. Most of Ali’s best work came in fights that weren’t title defenses.
Wilder doesn’t really owe the sport anything. If he falls off from here, he should go down in the same class as Bowe, Norton, and Liston (in no order). If he wins another belt and defends it or gets a big win, he could improve his standing.
Fury, on the other hand, has a chance to make a run at the top 5 or even top 3. If he beats Usyk and Joshua, and the guy from the next generation like Yoka, he’ll rank very highly. I tend to think he’ll disappoint though, especially considering how good Usyk looked a few weeks ago.
What am I reading? So now Wilder's "reign" is better than Ali's first one before the exile. Ortiz is some kind of ATG beast and Fury is top 3 HW ever.
Seriously, I am called a troll on this forum but people can't realize how stupid these takes are and that they are all the result of recency bias.
I do think that the global pandemic came at the worst possible tome for Fury and Wilder, just as the two world wars did for some of the old timers.
It cost them both a couple of legacy fights.
Surely you can't be serious?
I accept that Ali's first reign was not in the best era, but he was consistently fighting the best of that era.
He wasn't milking a belt, fighting fringe contenders, like Wilder was.
I agree with the Tommy Burns analogy.
Who did Ortiz ever beat? Norton officially beat Ali once and many think twice.Bowe beat Holyfield twice.Liston cleaned out the division as a challenger,Wilder defended against a gang of fringe contenders.
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Looking at it in a h2h sense:
1. The draw with Fury helps Wilder. Liston II should've been an NC if not DQ and I don't really rate it.
2. Aging Ortiz beats aging Patterson imo
3. Aging Ortiz beats aging Folley
4. Terrel beats Szpilka
5. Mildenberg beats Washington
6. Chuvalo beats Breazeale
7. Arreola v. Williams would be a toss up.
8. Duhaupas v. Cooper is toss up
9. London v. Molina/Fat Stiverne is so bad I don't want to think about it.
Yes, I stand by what I said. I rate the Ortiz wins and Fury draw.
Don't care. Ortiz was good. He beat a top 5 guy emphatically. Oba Carr never came close to doing that and is praised a whole lot as a contender.
1. There was no draw with Fury. It is practically impossible to score more than four rounds for Wilder. It was such a bad decision, that Ring Magazine ignored the result, which they rarely do.
2. Even if you are right, it would be a stylistic argument. Patterson had more greatness in his little finger, than Ortiz has in his entire body.
3-6. We seem to be on the same page more or less.
7. Probably would be a toss up in practice, but Williams was still highly ranked, so a very good win on paper.
I wont dwell too much on the rest.
Ortiz is a serial ducker he has bailed from Joshua , Whyte, and Joyce , he has one single half decent win in his entire career and that was 5 years ago! He is a false alarm fraud.
Utter horse**** and you aren't very bright if you think I'll be baited.