Yes or No - Would Prime Muhammad Ali beat every other ATG in their primes?

Prime Ali had some unique attributes but that doesn't make him invincible. He struggled mightily with Doug Jones, who was 188 pounds and probably wouldn't hold even the cruiserweight title today. He was close to being knocked out by Cooper. We saw him against some good opponents, but not against a prime Holmes, a modern supersized HW of the Lewis/Bowe/Klitschko mold or a wrecking ball like Tyson. He certainly didn't have the power to stop these fighters and outboxing any of them, even for Ali, would be a challenge.

 

:thumbsup Truth :thumbsup

Tyson showed teh boxing world when in tough fights in teh trenchs, he mentally unravels like ball of wool when exited kitten play with it And after a While mentally quits as he knows he cannt win - that is cowardly bully-mentality. He were always to mentally weak too beat a mentally strong boxer like Ali, Holyfield, Lewis, Bowe, Foreman, Frazier, Marciano, Louis, Holmes, Klitschkos, Tua..... Tyson looked v.mentally weak like a child against Tillis, Bonescrusher, Douglas, Holyfield X2, Lewis, Williams And McBide.

 

I don't think it's any fairer to rate Ali prior to Liston I than it is to rate Holmes prior to Shavers I. The achievement of peak form for both was an abrupt realization, not a gradual progression, in what was for each the most critical matches of their careers by far to that point. The improvement in Holmes from Arrington to Shavers was as stunning as that for Clay from Cooper to Liston, a quantum leap in performance. (Holmes was a maturing 24 years old when 188 pound Isaac dropped him, but Larry didn't have it happen before a world wide audience. Ali was 21 when Cooper's hook socked him, over eight months before Liston.)

Doug Jones was a wicked bad ass who had just knocked out Folley and Bob Foster, and ruined Rademacher's career in 1961. Fellow bad ass Chuvalo needed what may have been the finest performance of his career to stop Jones. Otherwise, Doug wasn't halted until turning 30. Suggesting he couldn't hold the cruiserweight title today when he held his own with many of the best of his era is gutsy speculation. He knocked out two IBHOFers (Olson being the other), including one ATG LHW, two HW Title challengers (McNeeley), went the distance with two more ATGs (Ali and Harold Johnson), and took seven rounds to hand Kirkman his only defeat prior to Foreman. I do cut a pre-prime Clay some slack for Jones.

 

Agreed

Ali was close to being knocked out by a lot of fighters. But none did it. That is why he was such a champion. With out his great chin, he is probably still the fastest fighter ever, but definitely not the greatest. In fact, hes record be quite ordinary. We would have seen losses to Cooper, Foreman, Frazier (3) and possibly several others if he had the chin of many contenders who were top 10 contenders only. Problem is, it wasnt.

There are lots of chmapion fighters we didnt see Ali against, and in fighting all the greats, he certainly would lose his share (as would anyone) but he beat as many all time greats as anyone. There werent anything in his fights with good boxer types (Holmes) like Ellis. Modern sized super heavyweight Joe Bugner to suggest that he couldnt beat this style of fighter with ease (obviously your examples were better fighters). And as for wrecking balls, i think you are badly mistaken. This was his specialty. He beat Liston and foreman, both by KO. These are arguably the two biggest wrecking balls of all time.

This is the main sentence i didnt like in your post. I think it is totally wrong. And i think most modern boxers believe this line of thinking and it is a reason why we dont have any greats anymore. Ali has the power to knock out anyone! He knocked out Foreman, who the so called powerhouse modern fighters couldnt even look like knocking out. Not even when they broke his jaw. You dont stop fighters with power (well sometimes you do), but good fighters can only be stopped by wearing your opponent out and timing your punches perfectly and staying fresh yourself. Ali might not have hit as hard as say Vitali Klitchsko or even Andrew Golota, but if he hits an opponent 3 times, it will hurt them more than any single punch these two can throw. And if he times someone correctly, the fight is over.

In fact, i even believe that Wladimir Klitchsko proves my point. Most people today think his advantage over opponents is his size and his power. Sure this helps. But, he wins his fights because he is in far better condition than his opponents. Half the time, his opponents can barely hold up their hands, when they are caught. Admittedly, Wlad, Lennox and prim bowe etc are exceptions, but there are not too many of them. If fighting Ali (and many other ATGs) these guys will all be fighting a style of fighter they have rarely seen because they have only ever fought guys who want to take their head off with one punch. The challenge works both ways, and Ali winning by KO against anyone is a far better chance than him losing by KO.

 

Nobody in history beats the Ali that beat Terrell. Not Louis, not Tyson, not Lewis, nobody. Marciano has the best chance.

Just my opinion

 

I love how Ali stopped three top ten all time heavyweights but yet people mock his power

 

You need to watch some film of Doug Jones if you don't think he'd hold the Cruiser title today

And Ali never faced anyone stylewise EXACTLY like Holmes or Tyson, but who the **** is on Holmes or Tyson's resume that is an Ali? Foreman, Frazier, Liston provide more than enough sheer quality to not hesitate to pick Ali simply because he didn't face an exact specific fighter. In other words I'll take one win over Foreman or Frazier over a hundred Valuevs.

Ali matches up better against big, slow movers than he does with small technical fighters anyway, he'd honestly make most if not all "superheavyweights" look like they're fighting in slow motion. Terrell is 6'6 with a very good jab and couldn't do anything on the outside against Ali.

 

You might be right.

On the other hand it might be like arguing that there was not fighter in any other era who was better equiped to beat Mike Tyson than James Douglas.

 

you don't think doug jones would hold a cw title? you don't know what the fuk you're talking about do you. this is hilarious. go watch doug jones vs. foster

 

Exactly a whole different animal, a motivated Walcott would be a Jimmy Young with footwork a killer punch and a much deeper bag of tricks

You have a wise boxing eye D

 

Tell me, how would you see the Tokyo Douglas going vs the Holmes Tyson?

 

Good post :good

 

peak ali was, for a short time, as good as you can be. He could beat any ATG in their primes. I just dont know if he would. If there was a champion able to beat all others I would however give peak ali the best all round chance.

 

Yup.

 

What are exactly the best years of Ali? None of us can really say when that was because we all know he was exiled at the age when he would have been in his physical prime.

I don't believe the 1960's Ali was the best Ali. He might have been the fastest by virtue of hand and footspeed. I don't believe the 1974 Ali who beat Foreman in Zaire and rematched Frazier was the best either. Frazier said repeatedly in the rematch that Ali had little to no offense except the right hand shot that hurt him in the second round of the rematch. Ali did his best to win the rounds by throwing meaningless punches while mugging, hugging and holding with Tony Perez' permission. A tiring Ali might not have taken the last three rounds in the rematch if it was 15 rounder. Who knows?

You really can't say if Frazier would have caught up to the same Ali who beat Folley and Cleveland Williams, despite Williams gut having been blasted out by a bullet not too long before this fight. What can be said is that the FOTC in 1968 or 1969 would have been one hell of a fight too. The Frazier who fought Ellis, Quarry and Foster would have given Ali a tough fight and the results could have gone either way.

1960's Ali is a speed nightmare for any heavyweight fighter. The pressure fighters who stay low on him would give him more problems, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier, Tyson. Larry Holmes' discipline would perhaps give him an edge because Ali always had the poorest hand positioning and defense. Ali covered up all his mistakes with his incredible reflexes, and against a skilled fighter with the jab of Holmes, this could spell trouble. Lennox Lewis brings the discipline of Larry Holmes, but he's too slow on foot and does have moments of laziness. Ali would counter and move around the ring on Lennox all night long unless Lewis keeps his hands up and cuts off the ring. I don't think Lewis would be rope a doped like Foreman, but he wouldn't be able to keep up with Ali.