Yet another question to those who were around during FOTC '71...

Truthfully, I wasn't around Chris,

But everything that I've ever heard about that fight, both from documentaries or people who lived during the times, said that Frazier was generally considered as the conservative" white man's " champion, while Ali was basically the favorite of the left wing liberals.

 

I was a kid, but I was around. My father took me to watch that fight on close circuit TV in an outdoor stadium. It was so cold that night and the reception was so fuzzy, it was hard to make anything out, between the waving picture and the shuffling of my feet...

I do remember what these guys were each supposed to represent, though even at the time I knew it was more what they had been designated to represent, by us. Ali obviously was outspoken, was against the war, was active in the civil rights struggle, Frazier never said much of anything on either count, but was grouped with the establishment by way of his silence and inaction nevertheless, and that seemed ok by him, at least with regards to the escalating gate.

But truth is, Americans were much more active themselves in those days than they are now, which is hard to explain except by the volunteer draft we got a couple years after FOTC. At the height of that time, celebrities routinely came on talk shows and took up sides, went on record as either a proponent of the old or the new or way of thinking, though they almost had no choice. This country was so clearly, adamantly split, if they didn't they'd be assigned to one side or another by outward appearances without having anything to say about it; just by assumption, and that old street philosophy that says, 'if you ain't with us, then you must be against us they'd be considered guilty or not, depending on perspective.

Frazier was a favorite of the older generation if only out of default. I don't remember anyone really knowing how he felt, or even if he felt strongly at the time. You'd have to guess he'd have no argument with Ali on the racial thing, Vietnam was a little trickier for everybody, but nobody of the old guard, except for guys who knew the game, (I knew a few who were already Ali converts by that time, sold on his ring performances, not as offended by that wide open mouth of his as the general public who couldn't see beyond it), wanted Ali to win that fight. Frazier's victory was a victory for them, at least that was how I saw it as an impressionable kid watching the world change before my eyes. But even at that age I knew it was just a matter of time, it wouldn't be long before people would wise up and learn something that real tough guys always knew, and that's that a bully is really a coward, out to prove something to himself by picking his shots and getting a win over the neighborhood weakling. I'm glad we've all learned that lesson well by now: that lesson that says, you don't give somebody a beating unless you have to, you don't beat the **** outta somebody just to make your bones, that the toughest guy in the bar is not the loudmouth drawing of the attention, but the quiet guy sitting down at the end of the bar minding his own business, and you don't level a country under false pretenses, kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the process, including your own.

 

Much of that was at Ali's instigation. He would repeatedely call Joe Frazier an "Uncle Tom" (which is quite derogatory to call a black man even now) and the establishment's champion and such. Marvis would get beat up every day in school because he was "the son of Tom"... Ali had embraced his role as rebel and a wet-dream of the flower children and Anti-War protesters. Joe was actually far more "authentic" than Ali when it came to living the black struggle. He was the son of impoverished sharecroppers and was reared in Beauford, South Carolina where it was BAD for black men. When he was a kid in NY, he stole cars to make ends meet.

Ali's upbringing was comparatively easy and sheltered.

Ali painted himself as an authentic black man fighting the white racist imperialist powers and Joe was about as blue-collar as you get. Joe didn't know what hit him when Ali declared that Joe was "working for the enemy". He was not eloquent and surely not politically astute. He thought that Ali's calling him an "uncle tom" was the same thing as Ali calling him a "peeping tom"...

Just another example of the wrong that Ali brought to Frazier, who was a simple, but altogether noble man.

 

I love Ali but his treatment of Frazier was disgraceful I thought.Joe was a decent man who didn't deserve that garbage.

What's worse is that a lot of left-wingers and celebrities seemed to believe Ali's bull****.

When Joe was in Melbourne to fight Jimmy Ellis he went and caught a show by Ike and Tina Turner who were touring Australia at the time.After the concert Joe was taken backstage to meet Ike and Tina.When told that Joe Frazier was outside to see them Tina snorted
"I don't wanna see that chump,Ali's my man"
This was all said in earshot of Joe who simply shook his head and walked away.

This speaks volumes about the mans dignity but also says a lot about the mind set of the left-wing and celebrity sets of the time.

 

The most ridiculous thing is that apart from his opposition to war and a few random pro-black liberation quotes, Ali's main opinions on politics and society were far removed from anything LIBERAL or LEFT-WING.

This guy was so opposed to inter-racial marriage he compared whites and blacks getting together to different species mating. He even joked about how his opinions were in line with the Ku Klux Klan's opinions.

This guy turned his back on Malcolm X when Malcolm branched out from Elijah Muhammad's sect and started calling for unity with non-black radicals and political militantcy. Malcolm X was a radical and a militant, an alternative leader for blacks in the struggle for equality. The NOI was a closed sect, and when push came to shove they were conservatives rather than radicals.

Elijah Muhammad was a nut-job "religious cult leader", who peddled mostly racist and otherwise bizarre mythology and labelled it "ISLAM" to the ignorant followers. The NOI doctrines of self-help and self-respect are drowned out in Elijah Muhammad's overall vision by the most repulsive and stupid teachings. This is a guy who invited the self-styled Fuhrer of the American Nazi party to talk to his "muslim" followers. This was the man Muhammad Ali followed and parrotted - not Malcolm, not MLK, not Huey Newton and the Black Panthers (all of whom had coherent political standpoints on the broad "left").
But somehow Muhammad Ali got put forward as a champion of the left or the liberals ??

Truth is, politically Ali was a moron.

 

Ali was articulate and quick witted but he wasn't a heavyweight intellectually. He was used by The Nation.

Elijah had banged up more secretaries than a middle-aged politician and had them all sent away to have the babies in secret. They were then kep out of The Nation. This is why Malcolm X left in the end. He knew Elijah was croooked.

Ali himself had an Irish grand parent. Look at him now in those docs, he looks like a white man with an afro.

BUT most of the lines Ali used were fed to him by The Nation.

 

Yeah, much of what Ali was saying at the time was just unbelieavable. And the fact that he turned his back on Malcolm X and wasn't affected by his stance even after his murder...

Ali's affiliation with the Nation and E. Muhammed is an embaressement in every way. There's just no way getting past that.

And his treatment of Frazier... Of course, to some extent it was to sell tickets and at the same time mess with Joe's mind, but it was more than that. It seemed in a way like he blamed Joe for his exile, which of course was all wrong. But this was one time when his pre-fight antics blew up in his face - BIG TIME.

 

"We are not with White power ,or Black power, we are with Green power".Yank Durham, Frazier's manager.

 

Jeez, Joe smoked weed?

 

I think Durham was referring to those pieces of paper with George Washington's face on it.

 

I think Frazier was badly served by Ali ,a man he had befriended and lent money to ,also trying to get his licence reinstated,he felt betrayed by Ali's insults and his kids got stick at school .Ali regrets his words now but the hurt is deep in Frazier ,a very decent guy, he deserved better from Ali and the media.The documentary was pretty much on the money I would say.

 

I think Frazier hit the nail on the head when he surmised that Ali had a problem with him because he was AFRAID of Frazier.
He was afraid that Frazier was a good enough fighter to (1) perhaps beat him, and (2) steal the spotlight with his exciting style.

I cant see why else Ali would continuing insult Frazier with such personal attacks.
Floyd Patterson provoked Ali, but Ali didn't continue the baiting of Patterson past their first fight.
Bonavena provoked Ali by questioning his courage because of draft dodging.
Ken Norton was actually IN the US military, Ali could have exploited that. Ali fought numerous white men he could have portrayed as rednecks and racists, but he didn't.

His problem with Frazier was fear and jealousy I guess.