You cannot just clump the Klits's resumes together and call them both ATGs

I can name several hall of fame fighters Floyd beat ...

 

That was not the question. It was.

Well since you're lumping both brothers together I ask you a question. So you agree all of these chaps have beaten future hall of fame fighters then?

Sam Peter

Sanders

Ibragimov

Byrd

Briggs

Danny Williams

Schulz



I find this bizarre. This era appears to be the only one in history where credit for easily beating ATG's doesn't occur. Although in fairness it only appears to happen at HW, look at the insane hype Mayweather gets for edging out completely shot fighters like Oscar. Oscar of course was ridiculously overrated to begin with anyway having been easily beating by Sturm back in his prime. In fact Mayweather has never beaten an elite prime fighter. How strange.

 

HURRRRR, Yeah because you know the point I made is spot on, so you have to nitpick and go on about irrelevancies...

 

If you consider Oscar at Middleweight to be his prime I think its safe to say you don't know squat.

 

Era

obviously none of those guys have beaten hall of fame fighters.

but you bring up a good point. the era is so poor that wlad could not demonstrate how good he really is in his prime. 2 of his losses have come pre-steward.

atg

i am biased when assessing a fighters atg status because i put a strong emphasis on resume. wlads case is exceptional as is joe calzaghes because neither fighter ducked anyone yet neither fighter has a signature win.


h2h

but i think wlad loses to atg heavyweights such as joe louis whos at the very top echelon of heavyweights and those that are towards the bottom of atg heavyweights such as frazier. joe louis hurts him with a right hand and finishes him. louis had arguably the best right hand ever and was perhaps the best finisher ever. joe frazier bob and weaves his way inside and breaks wlad down. frazier had underrated defense and his ability to get inside was exceptional. vitali is tough as nails and would give any heavyweight in history a tough fight.

if i were to compare wlad and frazier

Chin - Frazier A , Wlad C
Toughness - Frazier A+, Wlad C
Heart - Frazier A+, Wlad B
Stamina - Frazier A+, Wlad A+
Defense - Frazier A, Wlad B
Jab - Frazier C, Wlad A+
Power Punches - Frazier A+, Wlad A
Outside game - Frazier - B-, Wlad A+
Inside game - Frazier A+, Wlad D+

Overall average: Frazier - A+, Wlad B+

floyd

As for floyd, he has the following wins over hall of fame fighters:

in their prime: diego corrales, ricky hatton, jose luis castillo, marquez, judah (borderline HOF)

just past their prime: de la hoya, cotto, genaro hernandez

just past prime but been in too many wars: gatti

 

I agree with the differentiation between Wlad and Vitali. When you say "Vitali is no HW ATG" what exactly do you mean though?

I think the case could be made to rank Vitali among the 50 best HWs that ever lived. That would make him an ATG, however certainly not a top 10 one. Agree?

 

different people got different defintions for atg. i think top 50, 75 or top 100 all weights is reasonable.

ill probably choose top 75.

 

i still dont think marquez is an atg

 

If we're talking all weights then I don't think one could rank Vitali among the 50 best boxers that ever lived, across all classes. He didn't do enough for that. Just looking at HW he probably did enough to be placed among the 50 best. Could have done more if it wasn't due his injury retirement, but it is what it is. Just IMO.

 

beat a different one

 

good point. most people agree with you in this thread:

http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=499606

marquez beat a barrera who went life and death with erik morales 3 times and a casmayor who was past his prime. besides that, he hasn't beaten anybody even borderline HOF........apart from the legendary manny of course.