'You cant train a puncher' - unless your Archie Moore

There are some merits to this post, except I truly believe that Foreman and Shavers had the potential as great punchers before hooking up with Moore. Archie may have helped them to develop those talents, but the foundation was already there. As for him making a puncher out of Ali, it might have been possible, but I'm not sure that it would have been in Ali's best interest. He was better suited to be a boxer, and converting to a puncher may have limited his success.

 

IMO you are born with power, but you can always increase it and develope it. Shavers was most likely always a hard puncher, just he was able to harness it through boxing. Same with Foreman. Also, Ive always heard cutting wood and hitting tires with a sledge hammer was great for increasing power. I'd bet that if you took 2 guys, same height, weight, arm length, identical physically, and you made them do the same amount of chops in the same amount of time into wood for a year, one of them would hit harder than the other. IMO speed is the same way. You are born with it, but can always increase it. The same goes with chin. IMO you are born with a good or terrible chin. But, you can always do something to make it better.

 

You can make an average puncher good and a good puncher great.

Moore just identified the talent and polished it up.

 

Some guys just have the knack of being able to punch with power naturally, but others develop it.

"Punchers are made, not born" Jack Dempsey wrote a whole chapter about it in his book.

 

Absolutely. Cus D'Amato said it: “There is no such thing as a natural puncher. There is a natural aptitude for punching and that is different. Nobody is born the best. You have to practice and train to become the best."

 

Thomas Hearns and Emmanuel Steward need mention here. Hearns had something like 11 stoppages in a 155-8 amateur career but was taught leverage and a few select techniques when turning pro and started to know them over like tenpins. Heck, he knocked out his first 13 opponents in the pro ranks inside of the 3 round amateur limit.

Hearns is a very good case for you guys arguing punchers can indeed be taught - to an extent.

 

IMO Hearns always had power, he just didn't know how to use it or produce it. Emanuel Steward taught him how with leverage and technique. Notice most of Emanuel's fighters have big rights.

 

That much is obvious Bill...

But doesn't the Hearns example prove that sometimes a puncher can be taught? The argument is a fine line. The fact is unless Steward "TAUGHT" Hearns how to harness leverage and the like he would have been known as feather fisted. Granted not everyone has the genetics to improve quite so dramatically as Hearns, and some might never get anywhere power wise no matter what you do, but the proof is there that some people out there can come a long way with correct technique. I'd say physical development could make a little difference too, Holyfield built up into a fully fledged powerful puncher at heavyweight.

 

Dempsey taught that just before your punch landed you should make your entire arm as hard and stiff like steel as one could. In the seventies Ali fought, I think it was Richard Dunn, and he took Karate for this fight to make his right hand as straight as possible. Though Dunn hadn't much of a jaw the straight as an arrow-thrown with the hip into them right hands were something to see from Ali, each one stunning Dunn and much harder then his usually thrown punches.

 

You are born with the ability to do certain things. Sometimes, it takes a little guidance to show the things you can do. Still, you can't teach someone to do something they physically can't do. If you have a 12" vertical leap, odds are you won't be jumping 36" after some training. That is, unless you drop a considerable amount of weight.

 

I think the potential has to be there from the start,Hearns ,a murderous puncher ,scored few kos as an amateur,Steward developed the power that was there , combining leverage and timing to maximise Tommy,s punch

 

True, what you write does prove it happens "sometimes". More often than not, however, I'd be willing to wager that it has more to do with how a fighter naturally delivers their punches.

Teaching accurate physics to a boxer is very difficult when their trainer probably doesn't understand physics any better than the boxer they are attempting to train.

 

I'd agree, and didn't and wouldn't say anything to the contrary. I do believe i gave a great example for the thread however. This topic is moot really, when a guy like Hearns is "taught" to become an infinitely better puncher than he is debators are just going to say well he had to have had it in him anyway. Under this criteria the thread is shut down really.

Disagree here. Good trainers know exactly how to teach their fighter maximum power or close enough to it. For top level trainers of the ilk we are speaking of it's really quite clear. This isn't rocket science.