You know Gene Tunney gets vastly overrated when....

Liston, why are we always talking about Liston?

Liston beat Cleveland Williams x2, who is one of the most overrated fighters on this forum. Williams wasn't all that special. He went 1-1 vs. Terrell and drew with Eddie Machen. He got KTFO by Satterfield, Liston x2, and Ali... he didn't make it past the 3rd round with any of them.

He stopped Zora Folley who was very good but not very durable.

He decisioned Eddie Machen.

He stopped Floyd Patterson x2. Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ (20 times).


Tunney did not fight a lot of HWs but he was never dominated, never stopped, and looked good in the biggest fights of his career. He looked good vs. Dempsey. Sure, Dempsey dropped him but Tunney was able to continue after a few seconds. It doesn't matter if he was down for an hour... he was ready to go after a few seconds (less than 10). He also dropped Dempsey. Dempsey was in good shape vs. Tunney, especially the rematch. It was a good win for Tunney.

On his way up he beat Leo Houck x2, beat Battling Levinsky, went 3-1-1 vs. Harry Greb
(but most of my life I read accounts of their draw actually being a win for Tunney), he drew with Tommy Loughran, stopped Georges Carpentier (KO15), stopped Tommy Gibbons KO12, and can't forget the two wins over Dempsey. He beat plenty of other decent fighters as well.

People bring up the loss to Greb a lot and try to minimalize his wins over Greb. Based on everything I've read and interviews I've seen, Tunney proved he was the better fighter. There is no shame in losing 1 hard fought distance fight out of 5 vs. Harry Greb.

Tunney vs. Liston H2H? I'd lean toward Liston but Tunney would give Liston problems. Tunney would be well prepared. he'd study the films of Liston, get the best sparring partners, he'd figure out what the best training methods would be and what the best foods to eat would for bulking up would be. Tunney was a smart man, he'd have a good fight plan. Tunney would come in around 200 Lbs. and be solid. I think Tunney was a hair taller but Liston had the longer reach. Tunney moved well and had decent speed. it would be a good fight.

 

I'm not sure that what he did in the comfort of his own bed has anything to do with this?

 

Liston beat the not so durable Patterson (down 20 times... that's more than any other HW Champ in history) and was KTFO by Ali twice (quit, stopped... either way he was no match for Ali). 2-2 (2) in HW world title fights against only 2 different people (1 he destroyed in their first fight, so easy win in the rematch... the other dominated him). Williams wasn't ****. Folley was about as durable as Patterson and not quite as good (plus he didn't have the power of Patterson), Machen was pretty much on par with Folley but more durable (even though Johansson stopped him in the 1st round)... Machen gave Liston a tough fight but lost by decision. Valdes was washed up when Liston beat him. Struggled with Summerlin early in his career but won 2 close decisions vs. him. Got his jaw broke by the 180 Lb. Marty Marshall and lost by decision to him, he did beat Marshall twice, once by KO. KTFO by Leotis Martin late in his career. Stopped Henry Clark and Wepner late in his career.

 

Don't make me do a similar pick-apart on Tunney's resume ;-) Believe me, it's disheartening. One realizes that his biggest wins were really not all that special after all and were things Sonny Liston could have easily done and in a more impressive fashion. In fact, Tunney would have miles more trouble with the people on Sonny's resume than the other way around.

 

Hey, I picked Liston to win... I just think it would be a good fight. Let's not count Tunney out, especially since he really never was.

 

I joined this thread more to state that I felt Tunney is underrated and under appreciated rather than make comparisons of his career to that of Sonny Liston. However, that is the turn of the conversation and I will say this, any resume can be picked apart and over analyzed to make a fighter fit into the narrative the poster wishes. So I won't go there and if people want to pick Liston because he had the physical advantages in a fantasy h2h match up that is fine point of view. But I would like to add that against the best fighter either man ever fought Harry Greb, Tunney kept returning for match after match. Till he got better and won. Liston against his best opponent Ali, quit on his stool and layed down in one round. Character means a lot in the fight game especially when too greats are matched up. Cus D'Amato always said when fighting equal talents, he who possesses the greater strength of Character will win.

 

Liston Is one of THE MOST over-hyped on this forum...

 

How many black men did Tommy Loughran take on? Is he a great LHVY?

 

Where does that put Patterson?
If Liston was bad, then Patterson was several notches below him.