your #1 prime vs prime head to head heaveyweight

Great picks. All of those 4 were fine all-round fighters with the tools to beat anyone unlike, say, a Frazier.

 

You think Ali was at his best when he beat Quarry? That I haven't heard before. When he beat Quarry the second time I think he was actually quite close to his very best. But like most people I would say Ali was at his supreme peak in 1966-1967.

In his first fight against Quarry Ali was just returning from his long lay-off and was quite some way from his very best. In his autobiography he reveals that he was really, really tired when the fight ended in the third round and that he was very grateful for the cut that ended the fight.

To answer the question in the thread I have Ali as the number one HW and for the one most likely to beat him... probably Holmes, or maybe Norton. I think Norton would've posed Ali a lot of problems even if Ali had been in his absolutely prime when they met. He wasn't too far away from there when they met for the second time.

Of some other ATG:s

Foreman would always be a nightmare for Frazier.

Tyson for Dempsey. Or maybe the other way around if they were from the same era.

I think Foreman would have trouble with Lewis. Funny enough I think he could have problems with the other extreme as well, i e Tyson.

I think Marciano would be destroyed by Foreman much like Frazier was.

Holyfield might actually give most ATG: s a run for their money, because he was good at adapting to different styles. But I would give him very little chance against a prime Ali. I don't see him having any advantages in that match-up.

I also see Lewis giving most ATG:s problems. I can't point to anyone that I think would easily beat him.

 

Quarryatsch

It should of read Foley, who Dundee felt was Ali's best performance.

 

Same to you sir!!!

:good

 

Yeah, i tried to be very selective. We already know Liston and Foreman lose to Ali and i think Liston and probably Holmes beat Foreman with Lewis having a great chance as well. I think Holmes and a few others have a good shot at Sonny too. Holyfield i think goes 50-50 or just a little better, his style makes many competitive IMO. I think Ali, Foreman, Lewis and Holmes beat Tyson at first glance. The others aren't quite as easy to pick against.

 

The mains reasons: He was well beaten every time he met really good opposition, and he was given a hard time or beaten by virtually anyone who wasn't afraid of him. He was outclassed by Buster Douglas when he was near his peak, and as good Douglas was that night he for sure wasn't an ATG.

I think those are all good reasons. Now, what are you reasons? Why would he beat guys like Ali, Frazier, Marciano, Louis, Liston, Foreman, Lewis and Holyfield in their primes, who all was way better than anything Tyson faced in his prime and who wouldn't be the least intimidated by him? That IS the million dollar question.

 

He has his weaknesses too, like anyone.

He is totally unimaginative and has no plan B whatsoever when confronted with difficult scenario's. Granted i will give you he's a bit better strategized with Rooney in his corner but his style and abilities still dictate him to have a quite rigid style - this style gets tested as the opponent level moves into the GREAT stage.

His mental intangibles are up for debate if someone puts him under heavy pressure, which is going to happen many times in mythical matches vs the likes of Ali, Foreman, Holmes and numerous others.

Invincible has been proven to be a word one cannot and should not use in boxing. You did precede it with nigh tho i'll grant.

 

If he had he didn't prove it in the ring. When he still was in his prime years, before he went to prison, he got his ass handed to him by Douglas, had problems with Tucker in the early rounds, before Tucker broke his hand, and had quite tough fights with a one-dimensional brute like Razor Ruddock (who got ko'd in rd 1 by Lewis and also ko'd by Tommy Morrison). If these guys gave him such problems, what would the ATG:s do?

 

Ali
Holmes
Lewis
Foreman
Liston

 

Ali is proven vs all styles and levels. When he lost his youth and movement he found ways and means to still beat great fighters while much more flat footed. He adapted. Look at rope a dope in Zaire for an in fight decision that turned to gold. Tyson is not going to be doing similar - ever. He's either good enough with plan A or he's in trouble.

Frazier is similar to Tyson, he beats you with what he has or not at all. Both bring a considerable plan A to the table of course.

Again Foreman beats you with plan A or not at all. This is why the Ali's and Louis's stand above the Tyson's, Frazier's and Foreman's overall at the pinnacle of the top 10. On behalf of Foreman i will however note he re-invented himself (slightly different style) in the 90's and unbelievably regained the crown. Can't see Tyson doing that myself

I Am Legend for sure. Banned yet again? One would never understand why

Oh and Lewis had the balls to leave Tyson oozing dark blood onto the canvas :good

Really now.

Not at all mate. There are a small handful who have to be favoured against him. He is of course dangerous vs anyone but he ain't beating them all.

Agreed we can look at any greats record and pinpoint at least minor surprising struggles at various points.

 

You can't really have been watching these fights, have you? You would be better off naming fighters like D. Jones, Bonavena, Norton and Young (which he all met before or after his prime). The boxers you mention he all beat quite easily. Chuck Wepner scored a "knock-down" when Ali stumbled, that's about it. That he supposedly "struggled" against Patterson and Blin... My god!

Anyway, the point is that Ali beat Liston, Frazier and Foreman and a host of other good boxers who all brought their very best. Tyson looked very impressive at times, but as soon as good boxers fought him without any signs of fear he struggled and often lost. That's not a record that backs up the total superiority you speak of. But with that said, I believe Tyson in his prime would be a dangerous opponent for just about anybody.

 

Haven't heard from you in a while IamLegend.

Hows it going?

 

Good post, although I reckon a peak Larry would pose a very potent stylistic threat to Ali (certainly the 70's version). Lewis too for the reason that he carries as much concussive power than Foreman and is a superior boxer (in the purest sense).

An interesting aside is that 60's Ali on rare occasions showed a tad more vunerability than the later version (vs Jones and Cooper for example. Decked and badly hurt.) although - certainly against aul 'Enry - it was more a case of showboating and leaving his chin out rather than them genuinly catching up to him. When he boxed and moved he was insanely hellish to catch up with. Certainly against an in tune 60's Ali the problem for Holmes and Lewis would be exactly that. They'd both find the post Vietman version with more success although time and again that version of Ali showed his durability to unbelievable levels. Larry could possibly outpoint him by boxing clever and emmloying regular, consistent and savvy use of the jab but his workrate would need to be of a very high output every single round.

Same applies to Lewis, he had the physical attributes, power and skill required to pull it off but during certain moments in fights he somtimes seemed to tail off in his application. Facing any version of Ali up until '75 is a tough ask for anyone, even beating him once across a series of fights would be a good achivements.

 

I must point out the Jones and Cooper fights were before Ali hit his real straps. Take him right before exile at his peak (the peak he reached, but exile may have robbed him of being even a little better) and you have IMO the greatest heavyweight ever.

I think this Ali would be a bit quicker than Holmes and outpoint him in a good competitive hard fought bout. Holmes is a hard opponent tho and it's just an opinion. Lewis would be tough too of course.

I'll actually do a post this week regarding Norton talking about the best jab he ever faced.

 

- Good point, I suppose.

- I Look foward very much to reading your post regarding Norton. Along with Frazier those two were the fighters who gave Ali the most hellish contests (both were ironically trained by the indomitible Eddie Futch). Nortons jab was very good indeed and it was also his awkward poise and defensive style which had Ali baffled at times.