Your 30 Top All Time Heavyweight Contenders?

scartissue · Feb 19, 2019

McGrain said: ↑

1 - Harry Wills
2 - Sam Langford
3 - Peter Jackson
4 - Joe Jeannette
5 - Sam McVey
6 - Elmer Ray
7 - Jimmy Young
8 - Archie Moore
9 - Tom Sharkey
10 - Jimmy Bivins (if you count him)
11 - Harold Johnson
12 - Zora Folley
13 - Jerry Quarry
14 - Eddie Machen
15 - Ron Lyle
16 - Harry Greb
17 - Bob Pastor
18 - Tommy Loughran
19 - Ernie Schaff
20 - Earnie Shavers
21 - Kid Norfolk
22 - Billy Miske
23 - Fred Fulton
24 - Joe Choynski
25 - Billy Conn
26 - Joe Maxim
27 - Larry Gains
28 - Ray Mercer
29 - Tommy Gibbons
30 - Oscar Bonavena

If you don't allow Bivins, Steve Hamas creeps in.
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I certainly rated Bivins and can't see why anyone wouldn't. He is far more relevant than Harry Greb, who never weighed beyond light heavy and fought only a smattering of fighters who did anything of importance at heavy (not counting Tunney who was a light heavy when Greb was engaging him). Bivins on the other hand went to the post against Louis, Charles, Walcott, Bob Baker, Clarence Henry, Bob Pastor, Tami Mauriello, Lee Savold, Turkey Thompson, Lem Franlkin and Lee Q. Murray. That's a solid resume.

Jason Thomas · Feb 19, 2019

McGrain said: ↑

1 - Harry Wills
2 - Sam Langford
3 - Peter Jackson
4 - Joe Jeannette
5 - Sam McVey
6 - Elmer Ray
7 - Jimmy Young
8 - Archie Moore
9 - Tom Sharkey
10 - Jimmy Bivins (if you count him)
11 - Harold Johnson
12 - Zora Folley
13 - Jerry Quarry
14 - Eddie Machen
15 - Ron Lyle
16 - Harry Greb
17 - Bob Pastor
18 - Tommy Loughran
19 - Ernie Schaff
20 - Earnie Shavers
21 - Kid Norfolk
22 - Billy Miske
23 - Fred Fulton
24 - Joe Choynski
25 - Billy Conn
26 - Joe Maxim
27 - Larry Gains
28 - Ray Mercer
29 - Tommy Gibbons
30 - Oscar Bonavena

If you don't allow Bivins, Steve Hamas creeps in.
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Interesting take. What jumps out to me is Elmer Ray being at #6, a postion for which I have no issue, but Rex Layne, who beat a lot of the same guys, not even making the top thirty. I would rate Ray higher, but there doesn't seem to be that much space between those two.

Also there seems an excess of Dempsey era guys.

McGrain · Feb 19, 2019

scartissue said: ↑

I certainly rated Bivins and can't see why anyone wouldn't. He is far more relevant than Harry Greb, who never weighed beyond light heavy and fought only a smattering of fighters who did anything of importance at heavy (not counting Tunney who was a light heavy when Greb was engaging him). Bivins on the other hand went to the post against Louis, Charles, Walcott, Bob Baker, Clarence Henry, Bob Pastor, Tami Mauriello, Lee Savold, Turkey Thompson, Lem Franlkin and Lee Q. Murray. That's a solid resume.
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Bivins held the interim title which might lead some to exclude him. I'd certainly rate that title above some of the other paper champs not included personally.

Drew101 · Feb 19, 2019

McGrain said: ↑

Bivins held the interim title which might lead some to exclude him. I'd certainly rate that title above some of the other paper champs not included personally.
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Mercer held the WBO title. Does that get him excluded, too?

McGrain · Feb 19, 2019

Drew101 said: ↑

Mercer held the WBO title. Does that get him excluded, too?
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I didn't exclude him.

mcvey · Feb 19, 2019

Ra's Al-Ghul said: ↑

Why not; they were not world champion, but very strong challengers, which mostly were even the best of a continent (apart of Matthews), also top contenders by some sanctioning bodies.
Well there can be added Williams and possibly Johnson (or Mesi).
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Here are my reasons for excluding them.
1.Mitchell never beat a heavyweight of any stature.
2.Mavrovic never beat a single ranked fighter.
3.Charles does not have the resume to put him in this company.One win over a ranked fighter ,Neusel.Euro level at best.
4.Mathis never beat a single ranked fighter.
5.Mathews was a hyped fighter whose resume consists of a win over a washed up Ezzard Charles,a washed up
Rex Layne,both had been ruined by Marciano.A win over fringe contender Freddie Beshore.Not good enough!
6.Bugner. best win a highly controversial victory over in and outer,[mostly out] Henry Cooper wh o was 37 years old.

Not enough substance to any of their records.

scartissue · Feb 19, 2019

McGrain said: ↑

Bivins held the interim title which might lead some to exclude him. I'd certainly rate that title above some of the other paper champs not included personally.
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Gotcha! I wasn't sure of the reason. I personally take in consideration champs, NBA, NYSAC, WBA, WBC, IBF and WBO. Yet, I won't recognise Interim, IBU, Colored, White or any other state commission other than NY. So I guess everyone has their own criteria.

Seamus · Feb 19, 2019

janitor said: ↑

LaStarza no, Gibbons perhaps just.
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I'm at a loss as to who Gibbons beat at heavyweight to deserve this ranking.

Someone like Cooney actually beat some names even if they were on the downside.

mcvey · Feb 19, 2019

Ra's Al-Ghul said: ↑

All of these are wrong; by Standards of that time compete Mitchel at Heavyweight and was at the level of the peak where, what he showed in the fights against the best. He accomplished more than Moore and Greb as heavyweight. Mavrovic was awarded as the best European champion pound for pound, he destroyed Saleta, Francis, Cantadore, either Smith or Tubbs and a sparring partner of Moorer among others. He was the WBC top challenger for over a year.
Charles was avoided because of his heritage and nationality, so he didn't get the chance he obvious deserved, he is top 10 of his decade in the Heavyweight, won agaInst Stribling and was possible better than Braddock. If you moan about Burley or Williams among others didn't get a shot, then this counts for him even more.
Matthis was ranked at place 2 by the NYSAC and competitive with peak Frazier.
You measure for Matthews with Double standards, he Charles had just two fights of the year against Marciano and was not so old. He was closer to his peak than Patterson against Ali or Schmeling against Louis.
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Prove me wrong ! Name me who Mitchell beat!
Mavrovic NEVER beat a ranked contender,look it up!

Charles beat Stribling by a dsq and Stribling was not ranked when he did so again look it up.
There was no reason for Charles to be avoided he just was never more than European level as his record confirms. Burley and Williams beat world ranked fighters Charles never did!

Mathis never beat a ranked fighter its just a fact!
Mathews was a hyped fighter who never beat a class man in his prime.
Where Patterson or Schmeling were in their careers is totally irrelevant to assessing Mathews and his fights with Charles and Layne

These are facts that are inescapable!
Even for you!

Mendoza · Feb 19, 2019

mcvey said: ↑

Prove me wrong ! Name me who Mitchell beat!

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Have you ever heard of Jim Mace? He's in the boxing hall of fame. A legend. Don't go by Box Rec, Mace was closer to 25-5-5.

mcvey · Feb 19, 2019

Mendoza said: ↑

Have you ever heard of Jim Mace? He's in the boxing hall of fame. A legend. Don't go by Box Rec, Mace was closer to 25-5-5.
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This is so ridiculous!!!lol F Y I Mace was 59 years old!!!!!
For your information he hadn't had a fight for 7 years!
The rounds were shortened to 2 minutes each as a consideration of Mace's age!
For your further information his name was JEM, not JIM you ignorant twat!

mcvey · Feb 19, 2019

Ra's Al-Ghul said: ↑

I did, but you either used to ignore it or don't understand, due to a intellectual Problem (IQ points).
Stribling was number 1 contender just 1 - 2 years before and I thin Charles won even against Jack Renault, knocked Jack Sharkey out and was the first human who defeated Walter Neusel, who was top 10 of the decade just as and can be rated here too. He was just better than Layne in general, but you argued his peak was over after 2 - 3 years, because he was less successful, while in real he was not good enough to ever win against Matthews or La Straza. Charles was still top 5 - 10 in the division and just in his early thirties.

Matthis won against Ron Marsh, Claude McBride, Amos Lincoln and George Chuvalo, just as previous against a young (early) Joe Frazier.

Mavrovic won against Christophe Bizot twice, Clifton Mitchel and Oleg Savenko.

Mitchel draw with Killrain and Burke several times, all in the USA.
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Mitchell never beat a heavyweight of current stature if I am wrong why can't you name one?
Stribling was not ranked when he fought Charles look it up!
The last time he was ranked was in 1931 ,when he was number 7 .That's 2 years before he fought Charles.
Stribling was only ranked number one at the end of 1928.He fought Charles in1933=5 years later!

Pierre Charles never fought Jack Sharkey!
Neusel was only ranked in1932 no8 and 1933 no7.
Ezzard Charles, after his two beatings from Marciano had 16 bouts before fighting Mathews ,he lost 7 of them, 2 by ko!
Mathis NEVER beat a ranked contender.Now prove me wrong?
Mavrovic never beat a ranked fighter, it's just a simple fact get used to it!

You really shouldn't talk about intelligence quotients because when it comes to boxing your are as thick a mince!lol

Drew101 · Feb 19, 2019

McGrain said: ↑

I didn't exclude him.
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I know. I was just wondering if Mercer's stint with the WBO title automatically DQ'd him from this type of list, since some might count as being a "world title", if not lineal.

BitPlayerVesti · Feb 19, 2019

For Mitchell, Mike Cleary was pretty well regarded. I think the Madden competition he won had a lot of well regarded fighters in it, though the best ones were smaller.

He probably doesn't belong on this list, but maybe a P4P one.

mcvey · Feb 19, 2019

BitPlayerVesti said: ↑

For Mitchell, Mike Cleary was pretty well regarded. I think the Madden competition he won had a lot of well regarded fighters in it, though the best ones were smaller.

He probably doesn't belong on this list, but maybe a P4P one.
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Cleary was a 5'8" light heavyweight bareknuckler.Would you say beating him qualifies a fighter for this list?

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