Your thoughts on the Arc of Boxing

Another point that seems to get stuck in my craw is the almost absolute dismissal of the great Latin influx of the late 60's that really hit its stride in the 70's and 80's. There were some great, great fighters from Panama, Argentina, Puerto Rico, Mexico... and at least one from Nicaragua. I'm supposed to buy that all these guys lose to Barney Ross, Fritzie Zivic or Marcel Cerdan? Meh...

 

U, thanks for the critiques of The Arc of Boxing you posted above. These guys know what they're talking about. The book is interesting reading for sure.I met Mike Silver,who along with Budd Schulberg,and Steve Farhood,were conducting a boxing seminar,a few years ago. I spoke to him alone about the "oldtimers" versus the modern day "alphabet " era. This was before his book The Arc of Boxing was published, and we agreed that for the greater part there was no comparison. At that time Kelly Pavlik was
at his zenith, and I asked him this question. "I feel that Kelly Pavlik reminds me of the once middleweight champion Al Hostak ",and who would win between Hostak and Pavlik ? Well he sure had his opnioin alright, that there was no comparison between the two, and later events sure proved Mike Silver correct...:good

 

It proved that Pavlik was and remains a drunk. That's about all it proved.

I used to drink in Al's bar. He thought very highly of Hagler, for what it's worth.

 

I do wonder about the statistics relating to active professional boxers. They often just quote United States. But I haven't read the book.
That said, I do suspect numbers have dropped.

There have always been great fighters from Latin America ..... Baby Arizmendi, Panama Al Brown, Juan Zurita, Kid Azteca, Pascal Perez, etc.
All pre-1960s.

That's three great fighters you named right there. :good

 

Pavlik got completely ouboxed by Hopkins because he was drunk ?
Or am I missing the thread of this conversation :huh ... must be

 

There were certainly more Latin American fighters at the highest levels beginning with the late 1960's. That really can not be debated.

I don't want to toss around the "racist" tag to this guys contention. However, there seems a heavy cultural bias to his thesis.

 

Well, that might be because other north America and other regions have dropped off at a faster rate than Central/South America.
I'm not saying that's so, but it's the obvious counter-argument.

There are loads more world champions since the 1970s than there used to be, so more guys get remembered as "top level". They own a belt, they were on color TV, etc.
The truth is, some of the great Latin fighters of yesteryear, we've probably barely acknowledged.

 

Check the Ring magazine annual ratings for the 1920s, 30s and 40s, and there are a significant number of contenders listed who are from Mexico, Panama, Cuba, Phillipines and countries of South America ... in the lower weight divisions.

 

I don't know if he was ever going to beat Hopkins, but being a lush surely did not help in his fitness, training or preparation.

 

I picked 1974 randomly...

I count 51 fighters from Central or South America ranked among the 119 ranked here.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_1974

Pretty awesome.

 

Just got it a few days ago. The book is full of BS, just like I thought.

The author couldn't even get the facts straight.

Jack Dempsey "took out Carl Morris (6' 4", 235 pounds) in less than a round". Morris weighed 220 pounds, and many thought he took a dive.

Jack Dempsey "flattened Fred Fulton (6' 4", 220 pounds) in 18 seconds of the first round". Fulton was announced at 208 pounds, was at least 1.5 inches taller (6'5 1/2" in next-day reports), and was counted out at 0:23.

"In 1914 Joe Jeanette, 5' 10" and 197 pounds, easily outpointed 240-pound "Battling" Jim Johnson in 10 rounds". Johnson weighed 230 and was reported to be "hog fat".

 

Sounds like it was written by some crochety old man, who shakes his cane mumbeling "back in my day"

 

Every era has its great and not so great fighters. I really dont see Hagler loseing in that fight imo.

I dont belive old fighters are better ete, Yeah I may think Robinson may beat DLH or Hagler, but you cant count em out either, there great fighters.
Hagler would give Robinson a great fight though. And Hagler would be champion in any era.

 

Dan Cuoco
"Roy Jones, Jr.... I don’t think he could hold his own with forgotten greats such as Eddie Booker, Holman Williams and the Cocoa Kid, never mind a Ray Robinson or an Archie Moore. I think it would be no contest. ... Roy never liked to fight on the ropes. ...


Teddy Atlas
"Bernard Hopkins... He’s not beating any of the top middleweights from the 1940s and 1950s."


Hank Kaplan
"Pernell Whitaker... But I think Lew Ambers, Ike Williams and Tony Canzoneri were out of his class. Pernell was a good fighter for his time. In the 1950s a fighter like Joe Miceli would have given him a very interesting, competitive battle."


Rollie Hackmer
"Oscar De La Hoya... Lester Felton would have beaten him."


Bill Goodman
"But when compared to the top welterweights and middleweights that I saw years ago, Mayweather and De La Hoya are just better than average second rate fighters.

"Mayweather... How can you compare him to a guy like Tommy Bell from the 1940s? It’s night and day. ... in his prime he would have licked both Mayweather and De La Hoya with one hand tied behind his back.

"Even a guy like Gil Turner, who was a 1950s welterweight contender, wouldn’t have any trouble with either Mayweather or De La Hoya. Isaac Logart and Gene Burton wouldn’t have any problem with them either."


Mike Capriano Jr.
"Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones Jr. are good but not great fighters. Sam Baroudi, a contender from the late 1940s, would have beaten both of them. Middleweight contender Herbie Kronowitz, a good boxer, tough and experienced, with an excellent jab and footwork, would have beaten Hopkins."

"I have no doubt that Tommy Loughran at 185 pounds could outpoint Mike Tyson."

"Tami Mauriello at 190 pounds would go out and find Lennox Lewis’s chin. He was a mediocre heavyweight in his day, but I think about that Joe Louis fight and how Tami hurt Louis with his right cross."


Erik Arnold
"Roy Jones, Jr., Pernell Whitaker... I mean these guys don’t really know how to use a jab, they don’t know how to slip punches, they don’t know how to take advantage of opportunities."

"Lennox Lewis was a very ordinary fighter. Luis Firpo would have destroyed him. He would have overpowered Lewis even though he is cruder."

 

Some one is in the hateraid when I am reading this?

Sorry but I think Lewis would destory Tami and Firpo in short order imo. Top fighters vs Top fighters are what if games imo. I dont know if Ali can beat Lewis or vice vesa. But Lewis should be able to take out the Johnny Paychecks, Luis Firpo's, and Tami Mauriello's.
Though Loughran was a great fighter, I have a hard time in seeing him out point Tyson. If Tyson does not out right take him out in a round imo.