Your thoughts...

Ali was not considered an ATG in 1968. Had he not come back today he would probably not be rated top ten. Very difficult for any historian to rate any fighter whose career is a very unfinished book. Ali had yet to exhibit the ATG characteristics that he showed in his bouts with Foreman, Frazier and Shavers.

 

Ali was an Olympic Gold Medalist. He and Marciano would be only champions to retire undefeated. He had more defenses than Marciano. Ali would have wins over three Hall of Famers (Moore, Liston and Patterson).

The COMPUTER FIGHT Ali and Marciano staged would probably have more weight today ... considering they were the only two undefeated champs and you could see them in the ring together (even if it was staged).

If he'd lost his Supreme Court case, gone to prison, served his five years and hadn't been released until 1976 ... when the anti-Vietnam people began to assume authority ... he'd likely have been viewed as a big celebrity when he was released and his gift for gab would've made him a huge sporting figure.

He'd have likely spent the last 40 years calling boxing broadcasts and telling people how much better he was than all the other fighters who came after ... and the film of him during his reign in the 1960s would've backed that up for the most part.

Wherever people rate Marciano all-time, Ali likely would been right around there. Maybe a slot higher, maybe a slot lower. But right around there.

And without Ali, Joe Frazier's reign didn't exactly stand out, either.

Dave Zyglewicz, Manuel Ramos, Terry Daniels, Ron Stander, Bob Foster ... not exactly a Murderer's Row. Frazier's big rivalry may have been with Oscar Bonavena before getting wiped out by Foreman.

Ken Norton's big win in his career may have been against Jerry Quarry ... not exactly a Hall of Fame calibre win.

And Ali would've been getting out around the time Big George is losing to someone like Jimmy Young.

Fact is, the "SUPER 70s" heavyweight division wouldn't have been so "super" without Ali, either. Frazier without Ali. Norton without Ali. Without Ali, it's not one of the best eras ever.

It's not even sure if it's a very good one.

I'm sure if Ali had retired after the Folley fight, and been one of only two undefeated champs ever, with nine defenses under his belt ... he'd have stacked up pretty damn good.

Not in the top one or two ... but in the top 10.

 

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The problem with that is without ever fighting Ali, how good would Frazier have been viewed? His defenses overall were against awful competition. His big win would've been over Jimmy Ellis, who was Ali's sparring partner.

Frazier's only win over a Hall of Famer would've been Bob Foster, the light heavy, who had previously been beaten by Ali victims Terrell, Folley and Jones.

Frazier may have been viewed as one of the lesser heavyweight champions without Ali. He couldn't even make the Olympic team. He only got on because Mathis was injured. Without Ali, Frazier's rep plummets.

And Jerry Quarry had been arguably beaten twice by Patterson, who Ali toyed with, and Quarry was also stopped by Chuvalo, who Ali beat easily.

Ken Norton might never have even made it into the public eye. He'd been knocked out by Jose Luis Garcia. Frazier wouldn't fight him. How does Norton even get to a fight with Foreman without a win over Ali?

Lyle had been beaten by Quarry and twice by Jimmy Young and drew with Peralta. And Lyle had Foreman all but out.

Without Ali, I think the 1970s heavyweights may have not been viewed as anything special at all.

After Ali was forced out, the WBA heavyweight tournament was met with harsh reviews. People thought the division was awful. And Jimmy Ellis winning didn't help. He'd only had a couple heavyweight fights and had been beaten by middleweights.

Foreman knocking out Frazier may not have been seen as such a big deal if Frazier had just been beating up guys like Dave Zyglewicz and Terry Daniels for five or six years.

And, honestly, if Frazier didn't earn his rep off Ali, and Norton hadn't earned his rep off Ali, Foreman beating them wouldn't have been seen as anything nearly as special.

Pull Ali out of the mix in the 1970s, and the whole thing falls apart.

Frazier was fighting Ellis for $200,000 to unify, (Ellis made like $150,000) and that was THE BIG FIGHT - whereas Ali and Liston were making upwards of a million.

Foreman was fighting mostly nobodies before he won the title. And, without Ali, who would've followed the inept Joe "King" Roman? If George had plucked Jimmy Young out of the mix in 1975 or early 1976 when Young got ranked ... Young may have stopped Foreman in a title fight in the late rounds.

And George's reign may have been about as short as it was, regardless.

The division was huge because Ali was huge and Ali brought coverage that normally didn't follow boxing. With him sitting in jail, you'd have Frazier fighting once or twice a year against nobodies. Foreman fighting once or twice a year against nobodies. And who knows if Holmes ever makes it to the top without working with Ali all those years, making connections, fighting on his undercards ...

Ali's presence in the 1970s heavyweight scene changed everything.

I think quite a few people would've looked back at his 60s defenses and ripped into the heavyweights of the 1970s for not being nearly as talented as Ali.

Because they certainly ripped into the heavyweights who were left picking up the pieces when Ali got banned.

 

Fantastic post.