Your Top 3 ATG by Weight Class.

I think its fair to say that Velasquez is on another level to the " new breed pretenders " dont you ??!!.. :nono

I like the way you took 1 line from a paragraph of me explaining this ............... i beleive Lesnar holds a more effective game than Coleman ever did , in terms of wrestling for MMA , and yes i acknowledge he achieves this mainly through his physical attributes , i.e. his freekish size and strength , but the fact is he is very very affective in doing so , i beleive Lesnar's wrestling ability for MMA is on another level to Colemans given the nature he dominates his opponents with his pure wrestling .

Going back to wrestling for MMA , like ive said to you in previous posts , in MMA you dont always see good clean wrestling technique , the transitions just dont allow it , you are shooting from completley different levels , positions and scenario's in an MMA fight than you do on the wrestling mat , therefore the technique looks shoddy sometimes , i agree most of the time in Lesnar's case , but his credentials are there for all to see , ill give you an example , remember when Sean Sherk was practically rugby tackling Kenny Florian to the ground once fatigue had set in there fight , is Sherk technically flawed as a wrestler ??? ofcourse not , its wrestling for MMA and sometimes its ugly

 

No talent but he managed to beat one of the ATG kickboxers? If anything he was very, very dangerous.

The point is, apparently it's much tougher across the board now. Okay, then how come a. Cains best win is over a guy who only has one skill (something which apparently would not cut it today) b. The aforementioned Lesnar has managed such success in such a short time with such a limited skillset? Because it isn't because of his ffhting ability, he's essentially a pure wrestler dependent on size?

Surely of everything has evolved than that wouldn't get Lesnar through? Or at least wouldn't make him the kind of scalp that would legitimise a potntal 'ATG'?

Just throwing it put there mate :good

 

And one other thing. If we're rating fighters based on dominance, resume, ability shouldn't be take the rules into consideration?

Fighters are more well-rounded across the board, due to more interest, younger athletes from different disciplines cross-training etc etc

But a few years back you had to beat guys skilled in their own way that outweighed you by **** knows how many pounds! Soccer kicks, Gi, fighting for prolonged periods, being outweighed massively are all things that are less prevelant today, but they all provided obstacles (or rather where different challenges, circumstances that might require a different, not necessarily superior, but different outlook to your craft) that proved greatness in a different way.

These things however, led to less linear paths to greatness and can therefore be dismissed as 'embryonic?' But didn't these guys prove themselves I'm another way, despite some of their opposition being less than stellar/freakshows, and also, where is your crossover point? When did everyone suddenly become capable of beating these guys?

I just cannot see out of all people Cain is the guy you've gone for? F'n awesome, but there's little depth to the resume thus far IMO.

 

Fair enough, we just have different opinions on how good & effective Big Nog was at his peak I guess.

I think if every HW that ever did it fought today at their best yrs (granted Velasquez might not have peaked yet but Im going on what we`ve seen so far) I truly feel the top 2 fighters would still be Fedor & Nogueira... its just my opinion.

 

fedor
overeem
nog

chuck
shogun
rampage

anderson
hendo
franklin

gsp
diaz/fitch
sheilds

penn
aoki
melendez

 

Cain does I agree look on a different level to those guys but your still seem to be holding to the idea that "the new breed" represent a large advance in talent that he defeated.

In the end you were claiming that Lesnar is on "another level" to Coleman in terms of wrestling. Really I see little evidense for that, Colemans achievements as a wrestler were greater and who has Lesnar actually outwrestled in MMA? Frank Mir and Heath Herring, two guys known for their poor wrestling. You think Coleman in his prime would have had any trouble at all taking them down?

If anything I'd say that the last few years in the UFC have seen the HW division become less not more rounded. You call Crocop one dimentional but I'd say only in terms of offence, the guy had good wrestling and submission defence yet chose to use them defencively. There were a ton of other guys(Fedor, Sergei, Aleks , AA) who showed good abilgy in multiple areas aswell.

In the end Cains status as a well rounded fighter still has alot to be tested, thus far what we've seen is him outstrike some not very good strikers and outwrestle some not very good wrestlers. We've not seen him have to enguage a quality striker or a quality submission fighter for any lenght of time(and the short time he did the former things didnt go well) and indeed we've not seen him outwrestle a quality wrestler.

 

Good on ya mate , i ****in love a good debate , what are we on now day 3 ?? ........

Velasquez's biggest profile win is Lesnar no doubt , to the average fan he is the guy who beat down that animal Brock Lesnar , but i actually think his breakthrough fight was Kongo , he looked sensational against Rothwell and done what he had to against Lesnar and outclassed Nogueira ............ ok so lets break down what im saying here , what im saying is that i beleive Velasquez to be the type of athlete we will be atlking about in 20 years , im talking about revolutionary fighters such as St Pierre , Aldo , Silva , Fedor , for me Velasquez will sit in this bracket when all is said and done .

Now i see your referring to that word again ATG , well the sport is still young , so what are the boundaries ??? , Nogueira goes life and death with Fedor twice , picks up hard fought wins against average opposition such as Herring and Rodriguez and picks up some more higher ranking victorys against people like Cro Cop , Werdum , Barnett 1 & 1 and Randy , but all in hard fought wars , maybe Cro Cop aside but it may of been potentially , this is what makes Nogueira great , GRANTED , but aside from Fedor ive got Velasquez demolishing that field , and ive actually got people like JDS , Carwin and Lesnar being very affective against that lot too .

So ill go back to my original entry of Velasquez being placed at #3 AT , its as much a case of .......................... who else is there to be considered better than Velasquez in firstly acheivements and secondly the manner he has reached the top of the UFC pile from the old guard , you can make a case for Cro Cop , Barnett , Arlovski but these were flawed fighters in comparison to Cain , and some of there defining wins came against fighters Velasquez would toy with today , that is the benchmark im referring too , and yes i know im being over critical of the Pride days and the days of the Gi and the days of 350 lb men being submitted by 185 lb Royce Gracie , basically the freak show days , but i dont consider them days even close to the technical level of the sport we have today , they were great in that era but now they would be savagely exposed as one trick pony's ................

I do not consider Cain to be ranked all time off the back of the Lesnar win , i legitimise it by saying this man is the single most devestating addition to the HW division in MMA , thats my opinion of Velasquez , i think he's a one off athlete , and im certain he will go on to be ranked as this the further he gets and the more refined his skill set gets .

I just wanna go on record now as well and say this , I KNOW BROCK LESNAR IS A POOR MIXED MARTIAL ARTIST IN TERMS OF TECHNIQUE , but how can you not agree the sheer size of the man and his freakish speed , size and strength coupled with his wrestling is not a force to be reckoned with , i remember people on this forum all voting Lesnar in the predictions thread when he fought Velasquez and i was one of 2 (i think) to go Velasquez TKO , and now everbody is dismissing his win , its laughable , added to that his hands are so big , if he all but touches an opponent they look they have been hit with a sledge hammer , the guy is a freak , and an effective one too , and i think once all is said and done Brock Lesnar will be recognised as top HW , thats a sad thought but thats my opinion .

This is a good point but the sport has come so far since these days that they get dismissed as the more darker days of MMA , when you had people like Tank Abbott top of the pile , at least they do by me anyway , this sport is on a whole new level now and god help those " athletes " against a modern " world class mixed martial artist " , i mean these guys today are refining every discipline to world class standards in there individual dicsiplines , the one they may never get too is stand up , i dont think we are ever gonna see K1 and pro level boxing across the board in a mixed martial artist , but wrestling and JJ we are now seeing quite frequently .

I put Lesnar out there on his own as one of the most unique athletes the sport has seen , i think ive covered why i think this , most people hate to admit or accept this fact but i dont , Velasquez's one sided destruction of Lesnar came about because he is a) physically stronger than Lesnar in terms of cardio and fitness for the sport , maybe not in very short explosions but overall and b) because he negated Lesnar's wrestling , now Carwin aside (which is still debatable) , who is gonna stop Lesnar bull dozering them to the ground apart from Velasquez , and sweep or stand up once he gets top position ......................... ????? , im not sure there is a HW on the planet who can stuff a Lesnar TD over and over again until he gasses , Randy done a great job against him but Randy's wrestling is elite level , very very few HW's boast this skill set , now put Lesnar in a ring in Pride times and he's ****ed , but we are not in Pride times , the UFC offers a more true fluent fight with no breaks and stop starts for ropes or un warranted stand up's , again a very debatable point , something ive argued with people a lot on this forum , but one i beleive to be true .

And i think Cains demolishion job on Brock will grow in stature the more big names Lesnar adds to his resume , again my opinion .

 

This is ****in drivvel , im sorry mate but it is , if Velasquez fights Overeem whats he gonna do ??? he's gonna grapple him , if he's fighting JDS whats he gonna do ??? he's gonna grapple him , if he fights Noguiera , Gonzaga whats he gonna do ??? potentially stand with them

Thats what you do mate , you apply your skill set to your opponents weaknesse's , please tell me you do not hold a grudge against Velasquez just because he didnt go in there with fighters and stand up or wrestle them just to prove to people like you he's well rounded or better then that fighter in terms of there strengths its ****in ludacris !!!!!!

Velasquez out wrestled Brock Lesnar , one of the most effective and decorated wrestlers in MMA today , he has IMO shown a stand up arsenal thats worthy of any fighter in the HW division in any organistation , he is effectively a kick boxer now , his transitions and combo's are very very underated in todays game , i think his stand up is very very underated .

And what does he do if he gets tagged , he utilises his grappling , which i honestly see as his defining skill set amongst all other HW's in the world , i think his athletesisim , top game , strength and speed set him aside from them all , and i struggle to see a HW right now who see's a fight out with Velasquez once he gets multiple TD's and applies his top game and strikes !!!

 

What if Cain finds himself in a position in which he's unable to take down a quality striker such as Overeem or JDS? Obviously he's going to look to target his opponants weaknesses but a fighter who has fewer weaknesses himself is equally obviously a superior fighter.

Cain certainly equalled Brock in wrestling but I wouldnt say he outwrestled him, he was taken down a couple of times, escaped and then took Brock down before he in turn escaped. The match was desided by Velasquez's superior striking and Lesnar's inability to take punishment.

I agree Cain's looked very impressive thus far and along with JDS and Overeem he looks like the best prospect of the recent generation of HW's but talk about his career being effortless and him being more well rounded than the previous generation of HW's is streching things.

 

To say Velasquez is an all time great is just stupid. He hasn't even defended his title yet...we all saw what happened with Machida and GSP (1st reign) the difference that the pressure of being champion can make.

 

Lesnar took Cain down , Cain regains position and stands up , Cain takes Lesnar down and controls top position , Cain wins the wrestling exchange !!!!!

No ????

I dont see Dos Santos or Overeem stopping the Velasquez take downs unless they hurt him standing , as accomplished a grappler as Overeem is i still dont see him negating the Velasquez take down or being able to last the past Velasquez sets , or Dos Santos for that matter , can both fighters KO or stun Cain on the feet absolutley YES !!!

Again , my interpretation and opinion .................

 

Welcome to the debate , you have some reading to do

 

On striking, don't forget that smaller gloves do not lend them to boxing as we know it today.

MMA guys should study Bob Fitzsimmons, or watch the likes of Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker and Tommy Loughran to see how to punch with smaller gloves. And then adapt the positioning to be ready to stuff a takedown/defend kicks etc etc

The modern bobbing-and-weaving stuff won't work, Fedor has shown the best way to strike is to worry about landing your bombs and making them count, not trying to look flashy. Older boxers relied on feints/timing moreso than fighters do today.

 

Fedor has that ability to stand off and time his assaults very very well , he never seems to get drawn into a Nogueira Couture type exchange either . His stand up is very unique