Yuri Arbachakov vs Chan Hee Park

I wasn't around when Chan Hee Park was... but Arbachakov, who I did watch as much as possible and caught up in the digital age, seems to be a cut above, a real terror with serious pop. Wins over Espadas and Canto are very good but I'm going with Yuri.

I'm mainly here to bump those better schooled in these bottom weights.

 

I've not seen enough of Park to make a confident prediction either, but my guess is he was in the right place at the right time with a fading Canto. He was clearly a very good fighter, but he'd need to extremely good to be favoured over Yuri.

 

With respect, there's a difference between not seeing much of a fighter (not enough to confidently predict a fantasy match up involving him, which is what I said) & knowing little about them. I've seen nothing of Greb, but don't consider that I know little about him, I've read much on him.

From what I've read, I accept that Park's win over Canto was wider than a couple of the judges had it (by 1 round & 3 rounds respectively), but this is the first time I've read it as a shut out. As you know, their rematch was a draw & whilst I agree Canto was still good, he was faded.

You don't think Kittikasem was as good as Espadas? Do you consider Guty to have 2 x wins as good as Muanchai's over Chitalada?

I'd even say Kittikasem was broadly as good as Shoji Oguma. Oguma won 3 out of 3 vs Park, whereas Arbachakov didn't just win 2 out of 2 vs Kittitakesm, he destroyed him.

 

Kittikasem wasn't as good as Oguma or Espadas imo, not to my eye. Chitalada was faded and drained by the time of the Kittikasem fights and had long struggled with making the weight, evidenced by some flat showings during his reign.

A fighter of Park's very considerable offensive skill set and talent should never have lost to a solid, workmanlike fighter Oguma. He was really fast, technically gifted and a brilliant combination puncher but mentally fragile and a frontrunner who wanted to quit when things got tough and didn't have the best stamina or endurance either due to shirking training.

He left Canto in the dust in their first fight imo, and Canto was still a top class fighter despite being faded. He barely won a round. Being so small and light-hitting made him the perfect type of great fighter for Park to beat really, Park being equally skilled and as quick but much rangier and offensively dynamic while not having to fear any heavy artillery coming back at him. Park then didn't supposedly didn't train for the rematch and took Canto lightly. There was talk even that he wanted to quit part way through and had to be made to continue by his corner despite not being in any real trouble.

The Oguma fights are weird. The first one was Park at his absolute worst. He just threw in the towel early and let Oguma grind him down and beat him about without putting up much fight. The second fight though, he got his **** in order and kept it together for the duration for the only time other than the first Canto fight and outboxed Oguma clearly only to get buggered by the judges. He was doing the same for the third fight but then strangely just lapsed into non-effort in a fight he was winning and allowed Oguma to edge him.

Espadas was a brilliant fighter imo, had a really pleasing smooth slip and counter style, but Park just decimated him off the back foot with counter combinations.

Overall Park was one of the great gifted flyweights but just a bit of a glass cannon and basket case. Talentwise he was comparable to Pac, Chang and Harada imo but seriously lacking the mentality, toughness and intangibles of those lads.

He was probably a bit more skilled and talented than Arbachakov overall. No mean feat considering that Yuri is probably the best overall ex-Soviet fighter that I've seen. It's an intriguing fight in some regards. Arbachakov had the type of offensive arsenal, power and sharp, precise technical ability of hand and foot that ought to make Park cave in a fight that he might otherwise be winning by a close but clear margin. But Arbachakov himself was injury-prone, often lacking desire and seemingly able to be thrown out of his comfort zone by lesser fighters who didn't allow him to be methodical and one-paced. Be it by getting in his face or leading him about the ring etc. It's possible that Park's speed, combi hitting, variety and counter punching ability would make him very uncomfortable and put him in a shell. But the version who won and defended the title against Kittikasem was still focused and determined, and if that Arbackov started to uncork his left hook with a bit of abandon and keep zoning in with his heavy straight right, Park would be in trouble mentally even if not physically ( though I don't like his durability either against Yuris best shots). If Park fought like in Canto I and Oguma II and could maintain that vs the Kittikasem version of Arbachakov, I'd probably favour him on points. A bit more likely maybe that he shrinks and packs in though, unless as mentioned, Arbachakov falls into low output, insular mode and tries just to do just enough to win.

 

This one really has the potential for a great fight. Two offensively brilliant fighters squaring off in a Swarmer vs Boxer Puncher match-up. It's got a Shibata-Marcel type fight written all over it. Unfortunately, they both have serious tendencies to box within themselves which I think would be more likely. In a fight where Park keeps himself on his toes, I can see a big win for Park. He'd have to careful all the way through, and I think that's unlikely.

No, I like Arbachakov to catch him with something big and either finishing off not long after; or shutting Park down enough to win on the cards.

 

Excellent post.

Do you think Espadas has a better record than Kittikasem, or is your judgement based on the eye test? If the former, what wins does Espadas have that you rate higher than Chitalada x 2, Chang and Jimenez?

 

Hiya Greg. It's probably not straightforward tbh depending on how you look at things in terms of their records. I mentioned Chitalada being drained and faded against Kittikasem. By that time he lacked the legs and reflexes to get out of the way of Kittikasems heaviest shots. Chang too was a shadow of his old self, though still dangerous and slightly rejuvenated at fly compared to the Gonzalez fight. He was beating Kittikasem though in that fight imo and was a knats knacker away from winning before he got caved in in the final seconds. The fights sort of have asterisks against them, though all due credit to Kittikasem for winning. If nothing else he had fists like wet cement and was a very heavy puncher.

Espadas probably underachieved overall relative to his skill and ability. He never really recovered fully from the Park disaster and his prime was very short in a strong era. His two wins over the even more gifted but fragile Lopez were both brilliant, back when Alfonso was still undefeated and highly touted. I personally rate those two wins a bit higher than the Chitalada and Chang ones for Kittikasem, but that's just me. He did though have to score come from behind knockouts in both fights. He had good wins over the likes of Takada and Furesawa too and I thought he beat Betulio Gonzalez and was unlucky to lose his title in all honesty. It was a fairly close fight though and not an official win. Gonzalez was a fine champion and a stalwart of that era. Then the Park fight ended his prime.

In terms of the 'eye test' (which can be ropey and subjective), yeah, I'd say that Espadas was a more skilled and complete fighter than Kittikasem overall.

You're a fine poster btw and I enjoy reading your stuff.

 

I like Yuri by KO

 

Park was the flyweight Michael Nunn, although even that comparison probably shortchanges Nunn a bit. His reputation rests upon one brilliant boxing exhibition to win the title and one early knockout of an excellent fighter. The rest of his reign was just coasting.

I wouldn't feel comfortable picking him against any similarly skilled fighter with good stamina and the ability to hurt him (although Espadas qualifies there, and Park did beat Espadas). He COULD win, but there's just so much that could go wrong. Maybe if they fight under the twelve-round rules of Arbachakov's time then Park has a better chance.

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond & for the compliment, both much appreciated. I enjoy your posts too, including this one.

I've watched a fair bit of Arbachakov & to my eye he looks about as good a Flyweight as I've seen. However, given his win resume outside of the Kittikasem fights is relatively thin, I only rank him at #20 at Fly.

I completed substantial research on fighters I considered in contention for my top 20 at Fly. I concede that Kittikasem, Oguma, Park nor Espadas were part of those I considered in contention for my top 20 and as such, research I've completed on them is more cursory. As I've conceded earlier in this thread, I've not watched that much of Park. Therefore, I'm not in a position to challenge your views & so nothing below is designed to counter or contradict anything you've said.

When I'm considering rankings of fighters beyond the top 20 of the original 8 weight divisions, particularly when I'm not confident my knowledge of them is thorough enough, there are multiple sources I can refer to & my 2 x "go to" sources are:

1) Rummy's thread were 24 x posters here voted for their top fighters in each of the 8 original weight divisions - https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/top-35-all-time-reveal-boxing-survey-series.653021/ - as you can see of the boxers we've discussed in this thread, only Arbachakov appears in the top 30, at #29.

2) McGrain's excellent top 50 in the original 8 weight class series. Of those fighters we've discussed, he has:

Arbachkov @ #18 - https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/featured-b...eatest-flyweights-of-all-time-part-four-20-11

Kiittikasem @ 29 - https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/featured-b...atest-flyweights-of-all-time-part-three-30-21

Oguma @ 31 & Park @ 32 - https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/featured-b...reatest-flyweights-of-all-time-part-two-40-31

Espadas doesn't appear in the top 50, though McGrain does describe him as formidable in Park's entry.

I appreciate these rankings are based on career achievements, rather than prime H2H, so, as mentioned, me citing them is not intended to argue with your excellent observations, but rather just to present an alternate perspective.

 

I think dismissing Park as a fighter who lacked toughness is short-changing him more. I've never seen Nunn show heart like Park did against Oguma and Espadas. And he didn't show a bad chin in either. His problem was often lacking physical conditioning and being overconfident.

 

Kittikasem might well rank above Espadas in fairness mate. I struggle a bit with expansive lists and rankings other than the obvious bracketing of the truly great fighters. I really respect the effort people put in and the rationale behind it, especially when people are as objective as is possible. Bit yeah, I'm not really a lists type other than using them as intros to fighters who I'm less familiar with mostly.

Arbachakov was a great fighter, certainly ability wise, and was the lineal champion with multiple defences despite never being matched with other titleists. Definitely an upper tier flyweight in terms of ability and more than a match for most fighters in and around that weight. Just a brilliant boxer puncher. Superior p4p imo to the likes of Golovkin, Tszyu, Loma and the Klitschkos in terms of ability. But hindered by injury, inactivity, quick physical decline upon winning the title after a long amateur career and a frequently insular approach where he coasted too much and didn't open up with his considerable arsenal. His left hook was an evil punch when he used it and he could be a murderous combination punches when he wanted to be. So many of his defences were really close against inferior fighters. But I do really rate him highly in fairness, and it's a shame that extensive talk about him seems to be restricted to niche corners of the internet like on here.

Thanks too for taking the time to respond btw.