Zaire, Foreman's (lack of) corner and strategy

In Foreman's defense----who else is undefeated facing this level of competition that close together; prime undefeated Frazier. Prime Norton. Softie defense but stay busy fight against Roman. Muhammad Ali.

Then after that loss---Prime Lyle. Frazier rematch.

Pretty tough going 6-0 in those fights. Actually, to me anyway, 5-1 is pretty darn good.

 

Haha but really, Priapism is no laughing matter. I texted whilst driving myself to the ER for ER (Erectile Reduction) treatment. All drained out now, thank God. Copped a few female nurses’ phone numbers though - so it wasn’t all bad.

 

Yeah, some fights are just like that - particularly where punchers are involved and punchers who do their best work early in a fight - not so much great work as the rounds wear on and they begin to gas or least plateau down from their more intense efforts early in a fight.

At the least, one can attempt to draw a line after which the puncher has likely missed his boat and his opponents chances of victory increase thereafter.

Also, some punchers who are used to winning earlier can also have the psyches and confidence seriously dented when the early round KO win they strongly expect doesn’t manifest itself.

While Young Foreman had stamina issues anyway, the few actual rounds he boxed in the several years prior to Zaire wouldn’t have done him any favours.

Liston, even for his own good stamina and well metered approach was coincidentally in a similar predicament when he first faced Ali - relatively inactive with not many rounds under the belt in the last 2 years or so.

The two Patterson fights in 62 and 63 certainly didn’t give Sonny much of a workout.

In fact, after beating Machen in 1960 (a terrific 12 round workout) , over his next 4 fights, Liston boxed less than 6 full rounds in total prior to facing Ali.

That’s just 6 rounds (rounded up) over a 3.5 year period - save for those 6 rounds, that could be Liston’s argument for the negative effects of his own, protracted, inactive “exile” - though it was Liston’s own fault for being able to hit so damn hard.

 

Agreed. But I think this confidence probably extends further than the boxers themselves and might impact the psyches in the wider team/camp and really have an upstream impact on strategy.

As boxers can fall in love with their power, which can drive their actions in a fight, I wonder if trainers too can find themselves thinking in narrow terms on the same basis; not really looking at broader strategy - pre-fight - just at a single, proven tactic (Blast'em!!!)

I have a great admiration for those 15-round campaigners who seemingly have prepared for all weathers.

Although, re your comment on Liston, sometimes the early KOs just can't be helped and one can become adversely impacted by their own success, anyway.

 

I still maintain it’s a whole combination of things. Dick Sadler loving Foreman’s power. Archie also same, but not in a position to say otherwise as Dick was in charge. And of course there is George himself. Completely annihilated two men who not only went 1-1 each with Ali at that point but they gave Ali hell. He kept on punching, no decent advice from Dick. This carried on for round after round until he had nothing left. As great as a corner team can be they can still massively **** up.

 

Just speculation but if the fight happened in a far cooler place I think Ali would've moved around more. For what happened, he was in great shape as a 32 yr old past prime athlete. Dont think he gets enough credit for that.

 

If it happens day in New York or good old cold London I still think it depends on tactics. As yysay Ali moves more. As for George his man Dick keeps on saying the same old thing round after round after round after round after round. Get my point. It goes longer but without sound tactics he loses. Now with sound training and advice a whole different ball game. But it’s not to be. It’s George punch after punch after punch until he’s ****ed. Blame Dick Sadler.

 

There's a myth in the sense of ppl saying Foreman was whopping him bcuz Ali did block more shots than ppl give him credit for but I still think Ali played to risks regardless.

Foremans jab was underrated but tbf I'm not surprised w him losing a jab battle to Ali.

 

Shavers didn't help either. Holmes was not a puncher but that beating so late in Alis career also pushed him to further demise.

 

I have watched the fight and where am I wrong? I'm not saying it was a beating but he took some shots he shouldn't of, that's all. Given the intense heat and being 32, I get he wasn't a spring chicken either.

 

I don't blame anyone but Foreman really. Think his destructions of Frazier n Norton while being the favourite got to his head. Mainly I again give Ali credit for his grit and keeping his focus against the most dangerous hvy at the time to pull off an upset.

 

Mostly agree with you. Still blame his corner. But as you said. Human nature being what it is George must have felt invincible.

 

Corners can't fight the fight for their fighters. If you put Mayweather in Spences corner that doesn't automatically mean he'll beat Crawford for example.

True indeed about human nature. I do think he feel in love w his power and all the hype of Ali "going into his own slaughter" so to speak didn't help his ego.

 

I don’t know how true that is about Archie, he said constantly that Foreman was never close to his potential and there was so much more he could’ve done. Interesting how he let two ATG’s slip through his fingers as a trainer, had Ali or Foreman been under his direct tutelage they might’ve been as good as Joe Louis.

 

Most interesting thread.

My take is that this whole "Foreman and his corner dropped the ball in Zaire" has been blown out of proportions somehow.

As it has been stated several times in this thread, hindsight is 20/20 and it is very easy for us, armchair cornermen to go "Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda", but it is not that difficult to see how Foreman and his corner could be tricked by the rope-a-dope.

There is "fog of war" ... well, we can also have "fog of ring"
You think you have the upper hand, when you are actually losing. Maybe that happened in Zaire.

You are Foreman, the young champion with murderous hitting power and now you have a past prime Ali against the ropes with nowhere to run. You are battering him relentlessly with your brutal punches. Understandably you and your corner assume soon or later something is going to give up and then it is over for Ali.

So you keep confidently going on, until you realize it is not you who got Ali right where you wanted, but it is Ali who got you right where he wanted. But by then it is too late.