Zaire, Foreman's (lack of) corner and strategy

There was a great clip on YouTube years ago (it's no longer on there, sadly) of Ali doing play-by-play analysis of the Foreman/Frazier fight shortly after it happened. I recall Ali pointing out several times how Foreman wasn't throwing his shots with any kind of poise or accuracy, but was rather just flailing away like a madman. He also said something to the effect of, "If you make him work, he'll fall."

Ali had Foreman's number from the get-go.

 

Quite right re the directive to fight Young.

Ali was no dummy and yes, if others had played it that way, the critical judgment on them would’ve likely been more harsh.

GF looked to be on a good track for fundamentals as early as the Chuvalo fight.

I don’t know where Chuvalo was rated at the time but Foreman’s win was highly impressive nonetheless - with a jab already being compared to that of Louis.

But then the KOs came all too easily, less rounds in the bag per fight and seemingly less need to rely on the fundamentals that he already had in place let alone cementing and developing those fundamentals further.

Ali had a terrific team in support throughout his career - Foreman, not so much but then George still achieved a helluva lot in his first incarnation - and was still winning for the most part even after his psyche was blown in Zaire.

He epitomised the description: A force of nature.

I’m not so much into IFs but if Foreman had been brought along more considerately earlier in the piece against less demanding opp. on the way up, we might’ve got to have seen more of the “old head” on the Young Foreman.

 

Anyone who thinks that if the corner said ‘do this’ it would automatically happen and the fight would turn out differently … has never worked a corner or coached an athlete.

It’s not puppetry. The fighter isn’t a trained chimp who does whatever you tell him for a peanut.

Everybody can sit on their sofa and say ‘they shoulda done this, they shoulda done that’ … and it’s always after a fighter loses. Funny how that guy never gets off of the sofa, takes his happy ass down to the nearest gym and asks to work with a fighter to show how he can make someone a champ, lol.

 

A trainer in boxing is unlike a coach in almost any other sport. In boxing the trainer works for him and serves at his pleasure .

 

What argument? I made a definitive statement. As far as i can tell you were insinuating Dundee and Stewart (what i replied to was barely legible so one had to attempt to read between the lines) would have been onto things earlier. Dundee didn't have much of a clue what was going on that night as evidenced by my post.

Might be time to retire that old last work freak trope mate it's getting a bit impotent at this point.

 

This.
Fast forward 20 years and Teddy Atlas is screaming his lungs out warning Moorer to stay the heck away of, guess who? George Foreman.
Moorer doesn't listen.
10 seconds later Moorer is visiting zombieland and Big George is a world champ again.

 

This is something that many people do not give Ali credit for. His training camps were often tailored for a specific opponent. He was definitely trying to endure a war with Foreman making himself rock solid and having the stamina to outlast him. It was a crazy plan, but having his sparring partners target the body did work (although it definitely contributed to making his health worse in the long run, Foreman's body shots are painful just to look at). His right hand leads were a brilliant way to psychologically damage Foreman letting him know he was so much faster he could time him with his rear hand. I believe he also chopped wood and developed his back and arms to be able to grapple with the brutish opponent he had to face and tire him out. The rope a dope itself may not have been conceived beforehand, but it was always Ali's intention to outwit and outlast Foreman.

 

There aren't many boxers who'd go 6-0 against that lineup, especially with the schedule so packed. Many guys today barely manage to sustain 2 fights a year and they often have a soft touch or 2 before taking on major names like Frazier or Ali. Foreman had a pretty crazy schedule and was actually trying to face the best of his era which he doesn't get a lot of credit for.

 

Totally agree.

And Ali took his optimal prep right up to opening bell - to see him beautifully shadow boxing for 5 mins while Foreman kept him waiting and then see Ali work up the spectators (and himself) is really something.

Smiling at Foreman, then frowning and then cursing. Ali was spinning Foreman’s head around even before a punch was thrown.

Even the shots that Ali was throwing at an imaginary target were a precursor to his “bad intentions”.

It appeared clear that he was looking to hit George hard and often. It was almost as if he expended a rounds worth of energy before first bell - but Ali knew himself and what he needed to do better than anyone else.

Yes, those frightfully powerful shots we’ve all seen Foreman crash into the heavy bag (while training in Zaire) leaving that legendary dent in the bag - well, Ali was taking those very same power hits to his right and left flanks. Unreal.

I read that while in Zaire, Ali’s team steered him away from observing Foreman on the heavy bag. Not surprising.

Who’d want to see that before climbing into ring with George and knowing that you were likely to cop same yourself?

Certainly, I think Ali’s uncommon resilience possibly lent to some viewers underrating the actual punishment being inflicted upon him by Foreman.

In one particular round (5?), a vicious Foreman uppercut clearly reefed Ali’s head up. A legitimate bell ringer. What did Ali do in reaction? He spoke to George immediately after. Lol, who does that?

No doubt Ali probably said something along the lines of “Is that all you’ve got George?”.

Strangely, there seems to be recent wave of revisionism re the fight, revisionism that inaccurately minimises and dilutes the amazing victory that it was.

George fought dumb, George fell over from
his own exhaustion, etc., etc.

Ali had a lot to do with how Foreman fought - and if Forman fought differently, Ali would’ve adapted on his feet and had any alternative strategy on Foreman’s part covered also.

No coincidence that the guy who rolled the beastly Foreman was the same guy who, 10 years prior, did a number on Liston who was, like George, emphatically dominant otherwise.

 

I hear your point Pat but, wasn’t Foreman known to follow Dick Saddler’s directives - including in the gym?

And, whether a fighter listens/complies or not, there should be an attempt at least to give good advice.

Ali had a reputation for doing his own thing from the get go - though Dundee did claim that he employed “subliminal” messaging in order to indirectly influence and encourage Ali to focus on certain things in the gym.

Do we know what actual advice was being given to Foreman by his team during the actual fight?

I’ve heard Archie Moore comment on Ali’s cleverness during the fight but I haven’t heard what advice might’ve been given to Foreman to attempt to counter same.

Even before the fight, Dundee checked the ropes which were apparently oversized for the ring - so he tightened them as much as possible. Angelo can also been seen checking the ropes just prior to first bell.

Foreman’s team only reacted to the loose ropes during the fight - I haven’t read that they checked the ropes before the fight.

I think it was in round 5 when George’s team (or perhaps it was just Saddler) tried to adjust and tighten the ropes after seeing how well Ali was utilising them - but they were duly screamed away by Angelo Dundee - all this described by Bob Sheridan live.

I’m not saying George’s corner could’ve necessarily changed things or won him the fight - but there can be inept, average or even great corner work that can detract from or assist a fighter’s performance before and during this fight.

 

Exactly.

And he was the only guy that could pull that off. First off--a big risk. Most important a skill very few people acknowledge--the ability to think in the ring. They rate punching power and not boxing iq/finishing ability/conditioning/legs. Nope punching power.

Funny how a guy like Ali--and he already had bad hands going into the Foreman fight----get the wins. Simple---punching power is something that can be overcome by guys with a toolset at their disposal.

 

Good point re Ali’s bad hands which likely effected how hard he was willing to punch at different times - even before some fights, Ali had to lay off the heavy bag some time prior to preserve his hands.

A notable feature to Zaire was that Ali said before the fight that his hands were actually fine for the fight - a luxury that Ali didn’t often have.

Perhaps that was a further key ingredient that allowed Muhammad to punch with such authority during the fight - aided and abetted by the terrific skill set that you highlighted.

From one fight to another, Ali’s effective power did sometimes appear to vary somewhat - which was likely in connection to variances in the health of his hands. Without any issues, Ali punched hard enough imo.

 

Exactly.

And he was a finisher of the highest order. When a guy was ready to go, he went. Or a guy busted up against Muhammad Ali? It was all over; quick.

 

Here is what Archie thought of that fight, directly stated by the man himself:

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