Zaire, who else could have beat Foreman that night ?

Bang we have a winner.

Those are 4 bankers

Lennox Lewis as well for certain.

 

I agree.too many are clutching absurdly at the notion for example "40 others such as Ross priority could have taken foreman that night" as if foreman wasn't the same monster who crushed ATG"s like Frazier and Norton or like Ali didn't have to take an inhumane punishment to get the win.

My view is Holmes and young would have been steamrolled like Norton...perhaps Louis could have stood in there...oddly I'd rate Jack Dempsey and marcianos chances more

 

The only other person that would beat him is Cassius Clay.

 

Well lets go through the list (long read)

-jeffries: has a punchers chance but his lack of defense and skill will mean that this would quickly turn into a shootout. And no one beats foreman in a slugfest. Jeffries is saved from his own stubborn toughness when the ref stops it in the 6th after he is battered and bruised in a corner similar to the end of the chuvalo fight.

-jack johnson: superb fighter who had loads of stamina, a good chin, and a frustrating style. Very deceptive, started slow on purpose to lure you in then increased the pressure. Knew how to clinch and smother. Knew multiple boxing styles (including the old school european style) and could fight on the inside as well as slip and parry at mid range. Almost sounds like the perfect opponent for a wild bralwer like zaire george. Other than the height and weight issue, i dont see johnson losing if he is permitted time to adjust to modern rules and train. He might suffer a knockdown but id say 7/10 he could outlast foreman and win a decision or stop him late with his superior cardio and decepetiveness.

-dempsey: would have some success early with his head movement and vicious combinations but the size difference may be too great. If he can land that legendary left hook or set up his dempsey roll who knows what would happen. I wouldnt bet on it though, foreman likely shoves, outmuscles, and clubs him into a knockout win by the 4th.

As a side note, id pick dempsey to beat old man foreman tho. He was far too slow and plodding to catch the wild and fast dempsey cleanly.

-baer: the legendary right hand would be a major equilizer. We know foreman was a sucker for right leads (ali) and was dropped by heavy overhand rights from lyle. Problem is baer was lazy, a goofball and lacked defense so he may not get the chance to use it. Whats interesting is baer knew how to fight on the backfoot unlike most punchers so if hes in shape and actually uses his brain he might last long enough to hear the final bell but still loses. If he tries to prove how tough he is or messes around he probably gets stopped. Because of his many flaws and lack of discipline and defense baer loses to Foreman, especially zaire era, 80% of the time.

-louis: this would be a major clash of styles. Similar to the baer fight, louis had a great right but he also had ring generalship, combinations, and one of the best jabs ever. Louis would not be scared whatsoever having banged with gigantic baer brothers as well as carnera, etc. The only thing id worry about is joe's chin. If joe can come out establishing his jab and dictating the pace and range early he might bust foreman up and stop him in the mid rounds. Could george take his bombs and just bulldoze him? Possibly. But perhaps the answer is somewhere between the two extremes and both men are badly hurt with foreman suckering joe into a brawl and emerging victorious. Anything could happen, depends on joe's gameplan, his chin, and if foreman can or cannot pounce on him early a la norton.

Walcott: certainly has the footwork, jab, and ring smarts to beat foremam but he may be too small and lacking in durability for a modern giant like foreman.

Ezzard: an old school cagey fighter with razor sharp punches and the toughness to go the distance with rocky. He might be able to pull a jimmy young or do enough damage to win on cuts. Unless foreman lands a bomb early i could see him running out of steam and becoming more and more frustrated then dropping a decision. Like walcott he lacks sizd and strength so its just as possible foreman cuts him off and simply pounds away.

Rocky: horrible marchup stylistically. Marciano was smaller than most cruiserweights, often crude and wild. Bad combination of traits for an opponent who was several inches taller, 40 pounds heavier, and who had power in both hands and a relentless offense. Marciano is stopped in 3. He has superior stamina and heart but he wouldnt get the chance to showcase it.

-sonny liston: i would set an orphanage on fire to see this fight. It would be the most spectacular mathchup between two heavyweight sluggers in history. Listons jab, hook, and his own brand of bulldozing would mean they would meet at ring center and it would almost resemble a sumo match. Both men would refuse to back up and throw heavy leather. Two possibilities: A) liston eventually pushes foreman back with the jab and busts him up with body shots and combinations until he gets the knockout or B) Foreman shoves liston back and bombs him out with a storm of clubbing hooks and uppercuts. Or C) liston quits and the crowd goes into a riot seeing such a good fght ruined.

-Terrel: this would be like mixing a a gallon of vegetable oil in a bathtub full of water. Terrel had that anmoying jab n grab style ruiz used in recent times. Could it work? At 6'5 i could see him frustrating the impatient foreman and avoid getting splattered but then again cleveland williams k.oed terrel and williams was no foreman.

Holmes: had more chances than most. He proved he could hurt or dropped and still rose to the occasion to win. The laser like jab and latteral movement give george all kinds of problems. He certainly wouldnt win the decision with his stamina issues and wildness so his biggest chance would be to cut the ring off and it would resemble the ali fight. Could holmes survive? Im not sure, but its also possible he avoids getting into that situation in the first place and forces foreman to box, winning a lopsided decision in a thrilling war.

-tyson: i dont understand why people mention tyson as a possibility. I dont think tyson ever beats foreman except perhaps a prime tyson vs the plodding foremam who struggled with shannon briggs. Youre talking about a fighter who cannot fight backing up, much shorter, very short reach and and was more than willing to brawl (ruddock) or fish for "one big punch" (against thomas) if things didnt go his way. Thats a recipe for disaster.

On the other hand, tyson had incredible head movement, good defense, and an underrated chin (he was only k.oed after being slugged by dozens of combinations from douglass over the course of 10 and took major shots from ruddock and bruno). Because foreman was a "clubber" and not a smooth, explosive snappy type, foreman would have to catch mike with a lot of punches or at just the right angle to drop him. He isnt going to just bulldoze mike and knock him out cold in 2 minutes, mike was a seasoned professional and had good ring iq. So while it may look similar to the frazier fight at times, it would eventually look more like the bonecrusher smith fight. Foreman liked to shove and hated being crowded. Mike was good at making his way inside but once there...he didnt do much and just let his opponent hug him and reset (which benefited them both). Foreman would have none of that.

After a few ugly rounds of rassling, shoving, and glancin blows to the sides, stomach, and shoulders, foreman would open up and bomb away. Tyson slips a few times and lands good body shots and maybe even his legendary uppercut but tyson would quickly realize he would get murdered up close and tries to keep it at mid range where he can slip, weave, counter, and throw his own bombs but foremans reach means he beats catches him at some point and drops him. Like a shark smelling blood, foreman would be all over mike and would not let him off the hook. Eventually by the 5th both men are tired but tyson simply has no way of getting inside and no way of fighting on the outside. Hell be forced to either block the whole time and wait patiently for an opponening or try to trade. Neither scenario would end well as tyson was NOT an outside fighter (lacking the reach to capitalize on foremans mistakes) and the much smaller, easily frustrated tyson wouldnt survive a brawl. Foreman k.o 5

-witherspoon: could annoy foreman with his switching between orthodox and southpaw and tricky combinations and angles. He also had good power and an overhand right. The witherspoon who lost narrowly to holmes and stayed in shape could potentially win. I just dont see that happening because he was constantly having legal and fitness troubles to stay focused. Theres also his early k.o loss to smith which means foreman defintely has a chance to end things early. We never saw the best of spoon sadly so its hard to guess.

Morrison: considering morrison chose to try and outbox a 45 year old foreman and literally ran the whole night, i dont see him surviving against a younger and even more relentless foreman.

 

Continued

Holyfield: the real deal was one of the most complete specimens skill wise at heavyweight and had an incredible will to win. However, like morrison, he chose to box a middle aged man and after tasting his power chose not to slug it out or go for kill even when he had an opponening.

The difference was old foreman had better self control, used his jab, and paced himself way better than in zaire. I wanna say holyfield survives a scary knockdown and outboxes the wild foreman and tires him out, cruising to a ud or late stoppage but man, if he lets it turn into another bowe type fight he gets splattered by his own courage. Id still say holyfield wins 6/10. Foreman would be very confused seeing 4-5-6 punch combinations, lateral movement, and defense from a heavyweight.

Bowe: big daddy was an excellent inside fighter and slightly taller than foreman. Hed be happy to turn it ino a war. The problem was bowe lacked defense despite being incredibly talented and having futch in his corner. Bowe is one of the few people who might survive a war with foreman but i would fear for his health afterwards. Bowe duke it out all 12 rounds whereas zaire foreman was gasping for air in the 8th.

On the other hand...the reason foreman grew so tired was because Ali made him miss or blocked and parried his shots. Let me repeat, Bowe lacked defense and was tagged repeatedly by the much smaller holyfield, herbie hide, and golota of all people. Foreman still gets tired toward the end but my point is it wouldnt be because bowe is masterfully evading foreman like a matador or tying him up, hed be either at ring center trading or on the inside wrestling and throwing combos.

Because of this, i would say foremam might lose or get stopped late but its also VERY possible he hits a home run and take bowe out.

-lewis: really simple. Either lewis uses his brain and outboxes foreman or he gets caught by a right and sinks to the canvas.

Wladmir: same as lewis except he was better at the whole jab and grab thing and had ridiculous height. The extremely cautious dr. Iron fist may end up outhustling foreman. I doubt a knockout occurs because klitschko was gunshy even if he clearly had a guy hurt. But if he he does open up those sledgehammer rights might allow for him to pull of a stoppage. It might resemble the samuel peter or povetkin fights in spots.

However its also possible foreman pulls a corie sanders or brewster and pummels the poor doctor. That will always be a possibility up until the final bell because klitschlo isnt gonna lay on the ropes and make foreman tire himself out with superior defense and he certainly isnt going to let foreman bash his body and taunt him (that would get him killed within seconds). He will be on the move and keep that jab in his face every minute of every round while turtling or holding anytime foreman got aggressive. Really hard to call.

Vitali klitschko: foreman would essentially be up against a gigantic stubborn brick wall. Vitali lacks that 1 hitter quitter power but he could bang. Problem is vitali lacked defense and threw mostly arm punches (he had briggs right in front of him with no defense and couldnt drop him) lacking leverage or snap. Vitali did have an excellent chin and stamina so he could beat george with volume. My money would be on foreman as he was much fiercer and had the killer instinct. He likely has a thrilling war before the ref saves vitali who is covered in lumps and blood but is still game.

 

All these predictions must be based on the way George fought against Ali. He was horrible in that fight because he was not seasoned enough yet to deal with that situation. He had not yet won a good fight. He blew people out. It is great fights that make great fighters.

Young George Foreman was a victim of his own success. Norton froze and Frazier was past his best,,George knocked both of them senseless before either had a chance to get going. What else did he do? Jose Roman and Ted Gullick offered the exact same resistance between those key wins.

You could go through the list of champions (in their prime) picture the Guy who was so bad against Ali and for many of them you would say "Johnson too experienced" "Dempsey too ready" "Tunney too experienced" "Holmes too experienced" "Wald too experienced" in fact on that performance a hell of a lot of champions on their best ever nights beat George on his worst night.

That is not to say anybody else could be so good as Foreman against Norton and that version of Frazier..because Foreman was great in his own right, but Foremans over all Greatness is measured using two careers. His capability to produce significant longevity proves greatness. Elements of his first career prove greatness. But you cannot combine the atributes to decide a victory out of his worst performance.

 

Foreman was "so bad" against Ali? Seriously? The guy threw shots and indeed landed shots that would have stopped or set up other fighters for the finish, as we saw previously. The guy let it all hang out and gave it his best shot, which was far from as useless as you make it out to be. He gave it a red hot go.

Extending the GOAT Heavyweight (in many many eyes) is hardly a bad effort. Ali was inspired that night and nothing was going to stop him. Do you really think a couple of tough bouts prior was going to get George over the line? Do you think a couple of tough bouts were going to make for a multi dimensional George?

Marking Foreman (bad) on the premise he lost to Ali is spellbinding.

 

George threw bombs at Ali that would have flattened many many fighters. He did indeed. When he flattened Jose Roman he used the exact same philosophy against Ali. And that is really what was wrong with Foreman at that time. So much had went his way it was almost like George felt he did not need to differentiate gameplans between the styles of Ali and Roman. His experience of competitive exchanges of blows with world class men was nil. Perhaps this is because George was so good but by the same token can you please explain to me how this was not the case? Do you think George had these experiences to draw upon?

 

The thing is George thought he was invincible by this time. It made him what he was. He never thought Ali was going to stay upright and backed himself all the way. There aren't many historically that could handle this version of George. He was total destruction.

Pretty hard to to have competitive exchanges when the likes of Norton and Frazier crumble at your foot. These were a couple of the greatest ko's in history, i am not sure what more one could ask.

Realistically Ali was probably the only guy alive who could give Foreman a truly tough fight. Realistically the Ali fight could have also been the learning experience for George that you so seem to crave. In an ideal world Foreman could have came back and re-established himself and potentially taken over as Ali's career waned. Instead he ended up confused both boxing wise and mentally and the rest is history.

There is no proof Foreman would have been a better fighter by pacing himself. There may even be proof to the contrary. Perhaps Foreman's pure aggression is simply what served him best at that time.

 

Everyone thought Foreman was invincible as of Ali-Foreman.

The way to typically beat a great puncher is by clever boxing. Ali and Young did it and probably Tunney and Johnson, both in their prime superior to the Ali and Young that faces Foreman, would also.

 

Choklab who were all these great and durable technical fighters george could have fought at heavyweight to improve and become more "seasoned"...?

There was Quarry but Foreman admitted his camp avoided him after seeing Quarry outbox and befuddle fellow punchers Shavers and Lyle.

Who else? Honestly Foreman would have destroyed just about anyone else. Ellis wouldnt have lasted more than 2 rounds. Holmes was very inexperienced and had no name recognition at the time. He had already crushed Norton. Terrel was past his prime and wouldnt have offered much resistence at that stage of their careers. Perhaps if the Jimmy Young fight had happened prior to zaire his team could have corrected the flaw?

Your whole argument boils down to that saddler and his camp "manufactured" foreman by feeding him hapless victims and tomato cans instilling a sense of invincibility in george. But again, i ask who he could have fought that would help him realize his faults and improve? They DID put him against chuvalo (who was known for being super durable with loads of stamina), its not their fault george exceeded all expectations and blasted him out in a few rounds.

 

Larry Middleton, Oscar Bonnavena, Ernie Terrell, Joe Bugner, jerry Quarry, Henry Clark, Edwardo Corletti, Buster Mathis, Blue Lewis could all potentialy give George more rounds and resistance than Terry Sorrell, Joe Murphy Goodwin and Clarence Boone. Just two of them would have made George better equipped for Ali.

 

Bonavena was a plodding slugger with no defense, speed or ring iq. Granted he had a great chin and could bang but how on earth would that fight prepare for Ali...? Im assuming because its because of oscars durability and that it might go 10 rounds? It doesnt. George could do anything ringo could do and then some. He was taller, heavier, meaner. George stopped george freaking chuvalo, he would batter ringo within 5.

I already addressed terrel. He was past it and wouldnt have offered as much resistence. Terrel was knockout out by the limited journeyman williams i dont see him faring better against george.

Bugner wouldnt have really taught george anything. Bugner would have just been running, turtling up, and trying to survive. All it would do is **** him off, but it may have forced him to accept that he cant stop everyone and get him to actually ise his jab and boxing skills to win a decision. I guess i contradicted myself.

Mathis was slick but lazy and usually out of shape. He was the tony tubbs of the 70's. It would either help him or do nothing for him with very little money on the table. Would help his record though.

The foreman camp kept him away from quarry after seeing him execute shavers and put on a clinic against lyle. They allegdedly sparred as well. Theres a difference between a learning experience and getting beaten so bad it shatters your confidence.

Dont know who the rest are.

The thing is, even if foreman had taken some of these fights he likely stops the vast majority of them within 5 rounds like everyone else. I only pick quarry to be competitive and bugner would just run. So in hindsight there were little options available to prepare foreman for Ali.

Also, no one and i repeat, no one at the time thought Ali would be crazy enough to lay on the ropes and taunt a young power puncher to hit him and then let the guy actually hit him to break his confidence and tire him out. Theres no preparing for crazy. Stamina would have helped but Ali was a genius of psychological warfare and ring generalship. He may have had foremans number.

 

Maybe this is the problem?

Those guys were better known and vastly more capable than Terry Sorrell, Gordwin and Boone.

 

Larry holmes I think could have beaten George that night. I think he would have avoided foreman like the plague for the first five rounds. Jabbing and holding. Maybe he would have been rocked a few times but he has the chops to survive. By round 6 foreman gassing in the heat and round seven Larry moves in. George gets sent down twice and ref calls it off