Zora Folley Discussion

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Eddie Machen and Ernie Terrell proved that theory wrong. The fact is that Williams just wasnt on the level of guys like Folley and Machen. Williams had a great physique and a trumped up KO record. He looked the part so he was easy to hype but pretty much every time he stepped up and fought a recognizeable name, contender, etc. he either went the distance, lost, or was stopped. He was great against overmatched fighters with a ton of losses but his game showed a lot of holes when he had to step up the competition.

 

Williams drew with Machen. And stopped Terrell.

 

He also lost a decision to Terrell, so he failed to beat two guys who were counter punchers meaning it didnt take an aggressive slugger to beat him. Either way Williams is vastly overrated by some.

 

I can agree with that.

But I can't agree with the idea that Machen and Folley was on another level to him.
That would be vastly overrating Machen and Folley.

 

BothMachen and Folley consistently fought at a higher level than Williams and had more success at that level. Both guys turned pro after Williams and yet both guys consistently stepped up their level of competition well before Williams and consistently fought there from then on whereas Williams would generally step up, lose, drop down, step up, lose, drop down, and so on.

 

I thought the US census, certainly the best evidence, puts his birth year as 1930.

Off what I've seen of photos, and his surviving films (not the boxing matches, but the films he made with close-ups--for example his commercial with Andy Warhol) 1930 sounds very reasonable

When he was active, he claimed 1934 for a while as his birthyear, and later 1932.

 

That's one way of looking it, and I see your point, but Zora Folley lost by KO to Lavorante and Jones, lost to Terrell, and struggled with Henry Cooper and Wayne Bethea.
So, while the average calibre of opponent was higher than Cleveland's, he was beaten by some fairly ordinary ones too.
He did no better against Liston either.

Yes, you're right, he fought at a higher level for most of his career and was rated higher.

 

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No, the age thing has been overstated, & his Wikipedia page clarifies what is likely. Liston was not more than a little older than officially listed.

What might have happened to Quarry, it might not have been a slip & fall accident?

 

Im not sure what fight your talking about because it wasnt their second fight. Terrell moved backwards and side to side constantly working almost exclusively off the jab, which he used to swell Williams cheeks and eyes. If you think Terrell was being aggressive in that fight then you must think Willie Pastrano had a similar style to Mike Tyson.

How did Ali beat Williams? Because I seem to recall him dancing around the ring pot shotting Williams until he had his man softened up and then went for the kill.

Lets call it what it is Williams just wasnt on the same level as most of those guys and his record proves it. Whether they were boxers or brawlers is neither here nor there nor central to the argument.

 

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Williams went 1-1-1 against Terrell and Machen. This proves he was at their level. The AP scorecard had Williams edging Machen, and my personal scorecard had Williams beating Terrell in the rematch 6 rounds to 4. Williams even knocked Terrell down in the rematch(the ref incorrectly ruled it a slip). Williams is the only man to knock out Ernie Terrell in his first 12 years as a pro.

 

Cleveland Williams=Elmer Ray