MAX BAER IN PLACE OF FOREMAN?

It must be frustrating having to explain this when there are more exciting and productive things to think about.

 

I think it's far more frustrating for Seamus and It's Ovah. I'm picking apples, and they are trying to make apples into orange juice.

And I do appreciate my own believes being called into question. It gives me reason to go back and look at these fights, and say, "Damn, I actually think Baer is quicker than I remembered."

 

I heavyweight like Baer of Foreman is a bit of a unicorn.

By that I mean a pure slugger, who can work on the outside, and get away with how this leaves them open to counters.

To be successful with this style takes tremendous athletic attributes.

You need exceptional power, exceptional durability, and yes tremendous punching accuracy.

Although Baer and Foreman were both wild and sloppy punchers, their punches could land with uncanny precision.

What they had was god given.

 

Yea and he didnt have a grill named after him too

 

"Just because Foreman was the only person that stopped Frazier, doesn't mean he's only one that could."

I never said he was. But I don't see Baer having the tools or mindset to get the job done.

The manner in which he performs the move is as far from Lomachenko's application as a Valuev jab is to Ali's. It was, like the rest of that stoppage, sloppily done.

That a technique is poorly applied does not invalidate the usefulness of the technique itself.

Why then do no other historically great finishers emulate Baer's style? Surely, if there was something in it, someone somewhere would have tried it out and found it worthy?

A better finisher than Louis? Seriously?

I don't remember him backhanding the sh*t out of Washington. That, might I remind you, is an illegal move.

What about form? Technique? It's not just the sloth like velocity of the shots that's cringeworthy but the utter lack of craft. Baer literally looks like a bar room brawler.

And you call this a great stoppage?

I'm aware of that. He's displayed average speed in other fights, enough for me to countenance the possibility of him landing on and hurting Frazier. His sloppiness, however, is something that remains with him throughout his career.

Please stop this ridiculous comparison. You might as well wax lyrical about the subtle skills of Sam Peter.

It's not so much the context of the clips I take issue with, but your interpretations of it. Try as I might I struggle to find a meaningful link between Baer and Lomachenko that would further this discussion.

I also said it's not out of the realm of possibility for Baer to hurt him and drop him. I'm not totally writing off Baer's chances. But hurting and dropping Frazier is only the beginning, as past opponents have found out.

Yep, poor choice of words on my part. I apologise.

 

The link has been explained. And there is no argument for Baer's forearm being worse or less effective than Lomachenko's forearm and you know very well if you went into detail on the supposed technical differences it would come across as utterly ridiculous satire, which is why you are "Appealing to the Stone" once more.

I done answered this. In short, backhands were a more common short cut then and Baer perfected it.

I done said I don't consider Louis to be of Baer's era. That said, they are near identical in efficiency. Joe Louis 66 wins 52 KOs. Max Baer 66 wins 51 KOs. Both outstanding finishers for the 30s and 40s.

You asked me if I'm a fan of Wilder's finishes and I explained that I am not. Wilder looks horrible when selling out and a supposed title fight in the 30s or even 70s wouldn't be stopped on such nonsense.

You could apply the same cosmetic criticisms to Foreman's technique when he was in kill mode:

https://streamable.com/b4ybe

Nah, that won't do. You are going to have to admit you were wrong about Baer's ability to be explosive and quick on his feet if we are going to continue. And in turn, admit Baer was athletic.

The only clip you produced that matched Baer's quicker punching was Parker, who is considered to have the fastest hands in the division today. And you absolutely struck out on matching Baer's movement. There is no point in continuing discussion in the face of Stone Wall tactics.

 

In other words you don't want to hear any argument that exposes your ridiculous comparison between one of the most highly decorated amateur stars in history and a wild undisciplined slugger from the 1930s. Yeah, I'd probably hope for the same if I was in your shoes.

You didn't answer anything. I'll ask again. Why wouldn't a move as effective as you say it is not be practised by someone, anyone, today or in the last seventy years? The larger gloves wouldn't matter since the punch hits with the side of the fist anyway. And if it was primarily a guard breaking move then it could be achieved with the open hand and wouldn't require a massive swing to achieve its goal.

Lomachenko, whom you seem so fixated on comparing to Baer, uses a quick sweep to move an opponent's arm out of the way before striking with the opposite hand, as demonstrated below. (Starts around the 2:00 mark.)

This content is protected

Baer on the other hand clearly uses the movement as an offensive weapon because he puts himself out of position with his first wild punch that the only way to follow it up is by swinging the arm back the opposite way. He then punches again with the same arm, completely negating the point of lowering the guard in the first place! There's nothing crafty or skilful about that whatsoever. It is, in fact, the height of sloppiness. It's also blatant as hell, so for the ref not to notice it he'd have to be half blind, as he appears to be.

If you can't see the difference in quality between these two fighters then God help you.

Stats, eh? That's all you got? Louis is clearly a league above Baer in every way, including finishing ability.

Wilder looks as good as Baer and has the stats to back up his finishing prowess. Who are you to argue with stats?

Foreman looks fine there. Wide swings but great control of distance and tempo. Frazier can hardly get off. Obvious difference in quality between him and Baer.

Why would I admit something that I don't hold to be true? You want to bow out of the discussion because you can't get your way be my guest but don't bully me into accepting your opposing views.

 

I would actually like to hear an argument because all you are doing is "Appealing to the Stone." You aren't arguing anything, you pretty much just keep saying "the forearm is different...BECAUSE I say so." and there's nowhere for me to go with that.

This is your Catch 22 and it's quite tiresome. If Baer does something unique, you argue others didn't do it so it's no good. If Baer does something text book, you argue it's not unique and others do it so it's just average. What's the point in that?

You know very well the Lomachenko comparison wasn't about that one back hand, which was just a good cheap shot.

God help the Strawman. I can understand building strawmans in a public forum where you are trying to sway a crowd, but what exactly is the point of a strawman in a one on one argument?

Appeal to the Stone. You have presented no argument.

He doesn't look as good as Baer, I've never see such sloppy stoppages in all my years. Fights being stopped with Wilder missing entire combinations and tumbling out of control.

Regarding Baer and Louis, they had long finished careers and I argued their statistics within the context of their era.

The ever changing goal posts, the ever present double standards. You criticize the Baer finish because you find it slow and sloppy, but when presented with Foreman also throwing slow sloppy punches, you look past it and marvel at the tempo and distance. *yawn*

This is my last post then. You completely failed by your own standards, and just begrudgingly admitted, "average" Bull****. I don't play that.

You are going to have to admit you were wrong about Baer's ability to be explosive and quick on his feet if we are going to continue. And in turn, admit Baer was athletic.

The only clip you produced that matched Baer's quicker punching was Parker, who is considered to have the fastest hands in the division today. And you absolutely struck out on matching Baer's movement. There is no point in continuing discussion in the face of Stone Wall tactics.

 

A moment ago you were moaning about any attempted breakdown of the two being "ridiculous satire." Either retract those words or I don't see why I should waste my time.

There's no Catch 22 with my argument. The things he does uniquely are poorly done and baffling (the backhands), the things he does textbook, if that can even be applied to Baer, are also poorly done and often lacking optimum effectiveness (the bodyshots).

I'd like to see the post where I stated that because a move wasn't unique it was just average.

You invited the comparison in the first place. Since I assume you wanted me to comment on that I did so.

I don't see the need to argue such an obvious point. It's tedious and a colossal waste of effort.

Funny, I feel exactly the same about Baer.

https://media.giphy.com/media/KX94VO55eckY8/giphy.gif

Tumbling out of control you say?

https://media.giphy.com/media/3sHlSR2v61FIY/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/cL0T5ntqtWGMU/giphy.gif

Admit it, they're cut from the same cloth.

Wilder's been a pro for nearly a decade, and a champion for nearly three years. You can argue his stats within the context of his era as well.

I could break down the difference more minutely but at this point I really don't see the need. Suffice to say Frazier's inability to get out of the corner or fire off damaging shots of his own testify to Foreman's great ring control. That's the crux of my whole argument in this debate, and the thing which you fail to differentiate between Foreman and Baer. It's not just the shots, brah.

 

Good grief, nobody is stopping from you breaking down the technical mechanics of them pushing a forearm into their opponent's line of sight if you really want to take up such an endeavor.

Add it all up it amounts to a big waste of time. You already formed your opinion of Baer, and will apply different standards to different evidence and shift your goal posts as needed to maintain it.

Post #74 "You see knockouts and knockdowns like that all the time." "You could see exactly the same sort of shot landed in literally hundreds of heavyweight fights. "

I made a specific comparison and you built a Strawman implying I suggested they were the same quality of fighter. I don't have time to argue things I never said.

"If you can't see the difference in quality between these two fighters then God help you."

And that is an "Appeal to the Stone" fallacy, and a waste of my time to argue.

I see Carnera literally running from Baer and even crawling between the ropes to get away. I don't see how that's on Baer, but given your bias, I'm not surprised you can't distinguish the difference between that and the Wilder/Washington stoppage.

Poor Carnera caused both of those entanglements.

I asked if you could provide a gif of Baer doing this:

https://media.giphy.com/media/UOl0gWzZFnlUA/giphy.gif

Instead you show me gifs of Carnera running from Baer, falling into Baer, and tangling his feet.

If we are going to compare Wilder to his peers. He's behind Joshua who is batting 100%, and just ahead of Parker, Miller, and Ortiz. Wilder is one of several stand outs in an era of inflated KO% so we have to take these guys efficiency with a grain of salt. Half the current top 10 is undefeated for crying out loud, and yet to fight each other, so I'm not sure what to make of these guys in the big picture. Once these guys step up against each other or their careers wind down, their stats could completely collapse, so I'm not going to judge them just yet.

Of course it's not just the shots when you are struggling to find breathing room to separate them. I like how this ability to stop the opponent from "firing off damaging shots" is suddenly such a big deal to you, and something you absolutely failed to compliment Baer/Schmeling on in all these pages..it was all about shots, brah..then.

You are a waste of my time, brah. You are not willing to judge the evidence fairly.

 

The moves are fundamentally different in both technique and application.

Baer uses his forearm to push a tired fighter into position to launch a massive haymaker into. It looks, at least in part, an instinctive move born of the general roughhouse nature of the fight at that point, which has included several backhands and a degree of wrestling. After unsuccessfully hitting Schmeling with frontal shots to the gloves and arms he manoeuvres Schmeling with main strength in order to set up the KO shot to the side of Schmeling's head.

Now take Loma, who uses a fast forearm extension to blind his opponent to a quick shot around the gloves as part of a combination. He does it consistently throughout the fight with both hands, along with changes in levels of attack, changes in angles, altering tempo, feints and glove swipes. It is all part of a grander narrative designed to overwhelm and outbox the opponent who ends up losing a wide decision.

What you see as superficial similarities are in fact the least important part of the movement.

There's no shifting of any goalposts. I just don't find the man impressive, and certainly not good enough to compete effectively with a fighter of Frazier's calibre.

All my criticisms have been honest observations, not attempts to manipulate evidence to suit any pre-conceived beliefs. You can believe that or not. It doesn't really matter to me.

My point in both instances was in response to your assertion that what Baer was doing was somehow impressive when it wasn't. The commonness of the moves is irrelevant.

Why draw the comparison if you didn't want to create associations between the two fighters? Loma's a man primarily known for his otherworldly skills, so unless I'm grossly misreading things by comparing the two men you were hoping to paint Baer in a less crude light. Right?

I don't ask you to argue it since I'm not going to provide a counter argument. Some things are too self-evident to require debate over. If that's an appeal to the stone then so be it.

They're both sloppy attempts to finish. Baer awkwardly running after Carnera and throwing wind up haymakers against the ropes before getting separated by the ref, Wilder throwing ludicrous Simpsons style windmills that somehow prompt the ref to step in and end the fight.

Point is, you consider the second one sloppy and see nothing wrong with the first, or indeed much of anything Baer does on film. That's called selective observation, and you've demonstrated it throughout this debate.

Didn't look like that to me. Second one is clearly all Baer, as are the ones I didn't make gifs of.

There's more than one way of looking like a klutz. Show me a clip of Wilder backhanding the crap out of someone Baer style and I'll accede to your request.

I mentioned Foreman's great ring control from the very start. It was you, and a couple of other posters, who wanted to debase this discussion to a simple case of firepower and superficially similar yet unrelated techniques. Trouble is, you can't just isolate movements without understanding or acknowledging their place in the grander scheme of things. You need to analyse both the macro and the micro elements and approach them simultaneously.

Your whole argument has been nothing but a finicky analysis of two and three second clips and it's blinded you to the bigger picture. You've seized on superficially similar moments and extrapolated on them to argue your case. It's argument by piecemeal. Baer isn't beating Frazier because he's simply unable to control the ring the way Foreman is able to, even if you hold that's he's equal in all other aspects. He might beat him some other way, but that's a much harder argument to come up with.

 

So ultimately what separates a sloppy forearm from a technically sound one in your eyes, is a reading of intent from the observer....in other words, a personal bias.

It was to you a few pages ago.

"Curiously one of the most celebrated boxers at present, Lomachenko, actually does similar things you criticized Baer for doing"

My actual statement and it was in regards to the forearm and glove swiping you criticized as being inherently sloppy.

They aren't even remotely the same thing for reasons explained.

Of course it didn't.

Oops. Wilder at least trying to back hand some tomato can.

https://streamable.com/az0jx

You probably didn't think I could find a clip of that, though I'm not sure why you asked for it. From what I've seen of Wilder, he reminds me of Shannon Brigg's finishes, where they just windmill away, missing most of their punches and a generous ref stops the fight for them. Not the same ball park as a Baer and Foreman that beat men until there was no doubt they could continue safely.

I would argue that given Wilder's struggles with accuracy he could benefit from more use of Baer like tactics.

But you refuse to do so for both men so there is no point. When it comes to Baer you focus on technical short comings, but against Foreman you forgive them and focus on other things, which Baer also does but you refuse to acknowledge.

Once more:

You are going to have to admit you were wrong about Baer's ability to be explosive and quick on his feet if we are going to continue. And in turn, admit Baer was athletic.

The only clip you produced that matched Baer's quicker punching was Parker, who is considered to have the fastest hands in the division today. And you absolutely struck out on matching Baer's movement. There is no point in continuing discussion in the face of Stone Wall tactics.

 

Not trying to getting involved but it's worth remembering that Kentucky Cobra once praised Baer's defensive acumen in a sequence where Baer blocked a flurry of hard Primo Carnera punches with his face.

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...max-baer-turns-into-a-savage-hd.584466/page-2

 

You should probably link to page 1:

"he keeps that head low and chin tucked. It's similar to what you see Golovkin do today.

He's getting hit but he's protecting himself from serious harm while gaining ground and getting the openings he wants. "

You have dying to twist that into something else forever, now. You got absolutely stumped and it still grinds your gears. Defense isn't always about completely avoiding being hit, as explained.

 

Ehh, I still feel really good about my position in that thread, that unnecessarily catching Primo's punches with one's unprotected face is defensively irresponsible. To put it mildly.