Teach me about Sonny Liston.

It probably was because of how he dominated the division as essentially the "uncrowned" champion for almost 5 years. Had he became champion in 1958 and say he still lost to Ali in 64, that'd gave him a 6 year run and his title defenses probably would've been the men he beat anyway, perhaps with Johannson thrown in for good measure.

Also I guess, it was his intimidating aura. The men he fought may have been on the smaller side as far as comparing them to modern day heavies on the one hand, on the other hand, many of those guys were better skilled than the men AJ or Wilder are beating today. Especially Machen and Patterson. The only knock against them is they'd be considered cruiser's today, but they may very well have been more formidable than the giant sized heavies that AJ or Wilder or Parker have been beating up on.

 

Im going to catch hell from some here but I basically agree with you. I think hes incredibly overrated. He had a great jab and he was able to get good leverage inside or out with that freakish reach of his. But his record and performances are overrated. I believe this is because he cleaned out three guys that Patterson was felt in some circles to be ducking (Folley, Machen, and Williams) and crushed Patterson. Heres my take: Liston was a horrible size/style matchup for patterson. He was like Foreman to Frazier. A guy Patterson was just not going to beat, and in fact would always look bad against. Folley, Machen, and Williams never really proved they were anything more than contender level guys. They got some mileage out of claiming Patterson ducked them but to a man each one had plenty of poor performances and losses to indicate that you didnt have to be an unstoppable monster made of solid steel to beat them. In fact Machen was basically one handed when he fought Liston and Sonny didnt look great in that fight. I think the Williams fights are vastly overrated. People act like Sonny walked through fire to beat a monster in those fights but Williams basically fell apart after taking the first round and Sonny didnt really even open up until just before the stoppage. I think that shows more that Williams was a frontrunner with bad stamina or heart issues than that Sonny was this great destroyer. Thats pretty much the depth of Listons resume. The rest of his are nothing special. As you said, after Ali got done with him he was finished. He talked a good game about wanting big fights with the top guys but whenever an offer was made Sonny was nowhere around. His confidence was shot and his weaknesses had been exposed. He wasnt taking any chances and was just interested in fighting also-rans. Anyone who doesnt think he was a front runner with a bully mentality need look no further than his reaction to getting his nose broke against Leotis Martin. People love to act like he got hit with a hail mary fluke punch in that fight but when his nose is broken he looks like a terrified child and falls apart. Thats how he got caught. He showed that same kack of poise in the first Ali fight as well. I just think any A list fighter who brings that heat to Sonny and stays in there to outgut him will make him quit. Its why I picked Holmes to make him quit. I think its laughable to suggest the smaller, slower, less busy Liston would beat Holmes. Holmes would gut check Liston and Liston would fail that test. Im not even a big Holmes fan but I think hed embarrass Sonny.

 

In regards to being a frontrunner, he did fight a number of rounds with a broken jaw.

I think a lot of the Liston aura was a white media creation of the great Black boogie man. But there was substance to his rep, also. He was ridiculously strong for his measurables, absurdly long and had good athletic balance.

Say what you will about his heart or love of fighting under duress, sometimes physical assets alone can get you to the very top.

 

I read somewhere that his chest and arm measurements were equal to that of Lennox Lewis. I always thought of Liston as a super heavy trapped in a heavy's body.

 

Well in the first Williams fight, Williams broke Liston's nose in the first round.

 

Maybe he should ask Choklab for an unbiased opinion.?

 

Liston had freakish arms. Not only long but unbelievably thick too.

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jesus i will hate myself forever. But i agree with him

 

If he'd came along a few years earlier there'd have being a lot less doubt's about Liston IMO. He'd have being champ a lot longer and shown us more top level. He had the misfortune to be champ being challenged by a certain young man ..

 

It makes absolutely no sense

 

A personally think he was "bad-a r s e personified!" A lot of fighters can claim this, but his actual age was always debated, he had run ins with the law, etc.
Had he been brought along properly (see my 'a lot of fighters can claim this') he may have been 'prime' as early as 1955.
Side note: He trained like h e l l for a late 64 rematch with Ali only to suffer an injury postponing the fight. Vegas actually had him favored when he and Ali finally rematched in 65 when he 'may' have been 35-36 years old at that point.